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What's your opinion on machine translation and quality?
Thread poster: Daniela Zambrini
Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 00:32
Japanese to English
+ ...
... Jul 3, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

On the speech recognition thing, have you just trained yourself to speak in written text language? I use speech recognition for some things, but for most tasks I find that my spoken register and written register are noticeably different. I'm more verbose when I speak, and use more passive constructions that I'd smooth out in writing. I haven't really managed to integrate it into my workflow for most types of text.


I never really thought about this, but I guess I can just switch registers as necessary. I mean, I am just speaking aloud the same words which I would type if I was not using SR, so my brain isn't really in the same mode as if I was talking to my kids or friends. I've never accidentally blurted out something colloquial, it doesn't work like that - at least for me.

Another issue is foreign names - inevitably we have lots of foreign names in translated texts, which the software can't pick up. So the error rate is relatively high, and I find it a hassle to go back and fix...


With Dragon Naturally Speaking you can add words to its "dictionary," whether they be foreign words or ones with unusual spellings or capitalization rules, etc. For instance, parties in a contract are capitalized throughout, and I know that I will say their names hundreds of times each, so it makes sense to add their capitalized versions for the software to recognize. I have had varying degrees of success with this; sometimes the training works on the first try, sometimes it takes many tries for Dragon to get it right. I might be doing something wrong, though. That is usually the case with things like this.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:32
English to German
+ ...
Seriously? Jul 3, 2014

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

Discounts are great - MT is great - Life Is Beautiful


You weren't just kidding, were you? Just checking.

[Edited at 2014-07-03 17:04 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:32
English to German
+ ...
Interfacing speech recognition with CAT tool Jul 3, 2014

Orrin Cummins wrote:

I never really thought about this, but I guess I can just switch registers as necessary. I mean, I am just speaking aloud the same words which I would type if I was not using SR, so my brain isn't really in the same mode as if I was talking to my kids or friends. I've never accidentally blurted out something colloquial, it doesn't work like that - at least for me.


Orrin, how do you personally interface speech recognition software with a CAT tool like SDL Trados or do you? This would actually be a question for Paul as well.

[Edited at 2014-07-03 17:09 GMT]


 
Siegfried Armbruster
Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 16:32
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Me kidding? Never Jul 3, 2014

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

Discounts are great - MT is great - Life Is Beautiful


You weren't just kidding, were you? Just checking.


I am never kidding. Life is indeed beautiful. I absolutely love MT, but for me there are 2 types of MT and I love them both:

One means "automated machine translation" - this has nothing to do with the services we are offering. It actually helps me to convince potential customers that quality has a price tag attached. Just yesterday in an email conversation with a new client about the first quote I sent them, the client answered:

Keine Sorgen.
Die billige Schiene haben wir schon gefahren. Nie wieder…


The 2nd type of MT is what I call "machine supported translation". My computer and my software are "My Machine", knowing how to use it to improve my productivity etc., is in my opinion one of the key competencies to succeed in our business.

There is a reason why we are running our own CPD platform (http://alexandria-translation-resources.com/). CPD is the ultimate secret weapon for translators, but I won't get into this here. Everybody who understands German, can read my blog post (an English version will be published in the next few days) on this topic (http://alexandria-translation-resources.com/weiterbilung-fuer-medizinische-ubersetzer/).

Regarding "discounts", yes, I indeed love giving discounts to clients, as long as I can make more money by doing so. Offering a discount on a "per word rate" is a marketing tool, it does not mean that we offer to translate even a single word for a low rate.

I won't go into a rates discussion here, but offering to translate e.g. for USD 0.05-0.08/per word has nothing to do with discounts, these are in my opinion just unacceptable low rates damaging the whole industry and the person offering them. Everybody interested in some facts on rates should read the excellent blog post by Konstantinos Stardelis (http://greek-translator.com/blog/thoughts-on-freelance-translation-the-experiment/) who will present the results of his research at our conference in October (http://medical-translators-conference.com/speakers/konstantinos-stardelis/).

On CAT tools and speech recognition. It works for me and for many others, there is a lot of interest in this topic. We organized a free webinar (http://alexandria-translation-resources.com/product/dragon-naturally-speaking-fur-ubersetzer/) together with Nuance on this topic (in German) and hopefully will offer one in English after the summer. There is a Group on Facebook "Translators who use Speech Recognition" (https://www.facebook.com/groups/329297427203369/) and it is growing every day. There, you should be able to get answers to all of your questions regarding speech recognition.

Discounts are great - MT is great - Life Is Beautiful





[Edited at 2014-07-03 19:04 GMT]


 
Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 00:32
Japanese to English
+ ...
Dragon enters text in two ways Jul 4, 2014

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Orrin Cummins wrote:

I never really thought about this, but I guess I can just switch registers as necessary. I mean, I am just speaking aloud the same words which I would type if I was not using SR, so my brain isn't really in the same mode as if I was talking to my kids or friends. I've never accidentally blurted out something colloquial, it doesn't work like that - at least for me.


Orrin, how do you personally interface speech recognition software with a CAT tool like SDL Trados or do you? This would actually be a question for Paul as well.

[Edited at 2014-07-03 17:09 GMT]


The first way is directly, as in Microsoft Word. This method is indistinguishable from typing, from an onlooker's point of view.

The second way is through the appearance of a text box, as in Trados 2011 (the only CAT I've tried it with). With the cursor active in a target segment, speaking into the mic brings up a floating text box which contains the spoken text. Once you've got the text how you want it, you click "Insert" (or use a voice command) to copy it into the target segment in Trados.

You can also use voice commands to navigate around Trados, doing things like moving to the next segment, but many times I end up using the keyboard or mouse for that. My computer is a laptop, not very powerful, so there is a slightly delay for Dragon to process what I've said. This isn't a problem at all for dictating sentences when translating, but for simple commands I've found using physical (mouse/keyboard) input is just faster.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:32
English to German
+ ...
Using the TM Jul 4, 2014

Orrin Cummins wrote:

...
The second way is through the appearance of a text box, as in Trados 2011 (the only CAT I've tried it with). With the cursor active in a target segment, speaking into the mic brings up a floating text box which contains the spoken text. Once you've got the text how you want it, you click "Insert" (or use a voice command) to copy it into the target segment in Trados.

You can also use voice commands to navigate around Trados, doing things like moving to the next segment, but many times I end up using the keyboard or mouse for that. My computer is a laptop, not very powerful, so there is a slightly delay for Dragon to process what I've said. This isn't a problem at all for dictating sentences when translating, but for simple commands I've found using physical (mouse/keyboard) input is just faster.


Thanks. I wonder how this works with the TM. Do you override any suggestions displayed by the CAT tool in the segment (if any), figure out in your brain how the sentence or sentence part should go and which of the suggested words you want to use or not and then speak your version into the mic?


[Edited at 2014-07-04 02:05 GMT]


 
Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 00:32
Japanese to English
+ ...
Yes, basically that's it Jul 4, 2014

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Orrin Cummins wrote:

...
The second way is through the appearance of a text box, as in Trados 2011 (the only CAT I've tried it with). With the cursor active in a target segment, speaking into the mic brings up a floating text box which contains the spoken text. Once you've got the text how you want it, you click "Insert" (or use a voice command) to copy it into the target segment in Trados.

You can also use voice commands to navigate around Trados, doing things like moving to the next segment, but many times I end up using the keyboard or mouse for that. My computer is a laptop, not very powerful, so there is a slightly delay for Dragon to process what I've said. This isn't a problem at all for dictating sentences when translating, but for simple commands I've found using physical (mouse/keyboard) input is just faster.


Thanks. I wonder how this works with the TM. Do you override any suggestions displayed by the CAT tool in the segment (if any), figure out in your brain how the sentence or sentence part should go and which of the suggested words you want to use or not and then speak your version into the mic?


[Edited at 2014-07-04 02:05 GMT]


It's been a while since I used a sentence-based TM that actually suggested anything useful, but if I remember correctly I have Trados set to only automatically copy very high percentage matches into a target segment when it becomes active. So for example, a 75% match will show up in the concordance view window above the editor, but it won't automatically appear in the target segment (if it did, I would probably have to waste time deleting it, as re-entering it would probably be faster than altering it).

I then look at the source text and any matches shown in the concordance window, think about how to form the sentence, and then speak it (it appears in the floating text box). The floating text box is moveable, so you can put it somewhere out of the way on the screen.

Honestly, it's been some months since I used Dragon in Trados, only because I've been using Word a lot for translating the stuff I've been doing recently. But I have done probably 100k characters total using the Trados 2011/Dragon combo, and it worked great for me.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:32
English to German
+ ...
Not into speech recognition yet Jul 4, 2014

Orrin Cummins wrote:

... Honestly, it's been some months since I used Dragon in Trados, only because I've been using Word a lot for translating the stuff I've been doing recently. But I have done probably 100k characters total using the Trados 2011/Dragon combo, and it worked great for me.



It seems it really depends on how you like to work but probably more on which types of projects you're working on.

It can probably be arduous at times. I tried it out a bit on talktyper.com
It slowed me down considerably. And that was just by looking at the source, thinking, keeping the thought, dictating the sentence and then copying and pasting it into Word. No editing yet.
I know if you have the so-called "Windows 7 Ultimate", you can get language support for German and a few other languages and then you can type directly into Word, in that language. It would cost me $140.00 (USD). Even though I have the German language package for Microsoft 2010, German speech recognition is not supported. Would have to buy this Windows 7 Ultimate package.
I'm not sure anyway how much faster this would make me. If it's easy or repetitive text with a lot of the same terminology (not something creative where it helps me to type/write in phrases and think while typing), it probably works as long as the recognition is superb. But I'm sure it takes getting used to it to get fast enough to make it worth it. And the whole process of translating will be different. I'd be more comfortable if this would be already a built-in option in say Trados and you could then define how often or how much you want to use this function.

Why doesn't Trados have built-in speech recognition? Are they working on it? Did I miss something?

[Edited at 2014-07-04 07:35 GMT]


 
Siegfried Armbruster
Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 16:32
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Speech recognition Jul 4, 2014

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

It can probably be arduous at times. I tried it out a bit on talktyper.com
It slowed me down considerably.

I know if you have the so-called "Windows 7 Ultimate", you can get language support for German and a few other languages and then you can type directly into Word, in that language. It would cost me $140.00 (USD). Even though I have the German language package for Microsoft 2010, German speech recognition is not supported. Would have to buy this Windows 7 Ultimate package.


The best solution and the only solution I would recommend is Dragon Naturally Speaking Premium. If you want to control Trados through speech recognition, you will have to buy the Professional version, which is considerably more expensive.

Why doesn't Trados have built-in speech recognition? Are they working on it? Did I miss something?


Thanks god they have not integrated it. This would make the program even heavier than it is, and speech recognition can also be nicely used outside of Trados.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:32
English to German
+ ...
Worth checking out Jul 4, 2014

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Why doesn't Trados have built-in speech recognition? Are they working on it? Did I miss something?


Thanks god they have not integrated it. This would make the program even heavier than it is, and speech recognition can also be nicely used outside of Trados.


Thanks Siegfried for the info. With regard to Trados, I thought if they get speech recognition as a neat and not too heavy added-on option, why not? But I'm not a speech recognition program expert. As I said before, whatever speech recognition program you use, it might work for some subject fields and not so much for others or for some translators and not for others. I am a translator who is used to thinking while typing (most creative when looking at the source text and then immediately typing out my thoughts in the target language and after I type it, I might change it immediately again after looking at my first version and so on, often also typing parts of a sentence and adding on other parts). It's definitely a reading>thinking>typing process that I have going here. For me it would probably be a big change to use the speech recognition program. It might be a solution though for some subject areas, even for me. I still believe it shouldn't be a big deal to have speech-to-text conversion in the language packages of Word. They changed it from speech to text to text to speech. I'll definitely check out Dragon Naturally Speaking - did I read this correctly somewhere that they have a trial version?

B

[Edited at 2014-07-04 08:35 GMT]


 
Daniel Meier
Daniel Meier  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:32
English to German
+ ...
Dragon and Trados Jul 4, 2014

Some thoughts on using Dragon and Trados:
I am using Dragon and SDL Trados Studio 2011. During translation, I just dictate into the segment the same way I would type (never seen the floating textbox).
For the Trados commands, I use the keyboard shortcuts.
If a useful Fuzzy-Match comes up, I edit it manually, eventually dictating part of it.
Although this might sound complicated, at least for me it is not - the whole point of Dragon is to get used to the workflow. Not ever
... See more
Some thoughts on using Dragon and Trados:
I am using Dragon and SDL Trados Studio 2011. During translation, I just dictate into the segment the same way I would type (never seen the floating textbox).
For the Trados commands, I use the keyboard shortcuts.
If a useful Fuzzy-Match comes up, I edit it manually, eventually dictating part of it.
Although this might sound complicated, at least for me it is not - the whole point of Dragon is to get used to the workflow. Not everybody will like it or find it useful.
Also, when the file is full of tags, Dragon becomes less useful, as you have to jump around the tags, the same goes for texts with lots of names, abbreviations etc., when they should remain untranslated.
In my opinion it is mostly a matter of getting used to (and getting to like) the workflow and of the type of project, as Bernhard pointed out. The combination of Dragon and CAT tools will not be the same for every project in means of productivity gains.
Collapse


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:32
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
On sale at the moment Jul 4, 2014

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I'll definitely check out Dragon Naturally Speaking - did I read this correctly somewhere that they have a trial version?

Not sure about trial, but the Home version is currently on sale at the UK store for £39.99.

http://shop.nuance.co.uk/DRHM/store?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&SiteID=nuanceeu&Locale=en_GB&ThemeID=26429600&Env=BASE&productID=253297000


 
Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 00:32
Japanese to English
+ ...
What version? Jul 4, 2014

Daniel Meier wrote:

Some thoughts on using Dragon and Trados:
I am using Dragon and SDL Trados Studio 2011. During translation, I just dictate into the segment the same way I would type (never seen the floating textbox).
For the Trados commands, I use the keyboard shortcuts.
If a useful Fuzzy-Match comes up, I edit it manually, eventually dictating part of it.
Although this might sound complicated, at least for me it is not - the whole point of Dragon is to get used to the workflow. Not everybody will like it or find it useful.
Also, when the file is full of tags, Dragon becomes less useful, as you have to jump around the tags, the same goes for texts with lots of names, abbreviations etc., when they should remain untranslated.
In my opinion it is mostly a matter of getting used to (and getting to like) the workflow and of the type of project, as Bernhard pointed out. The combination of Dragon and CAT tools will not be the same for every project in means of productivity gains.




Ah, the dictation box is optional with Trados. I see the setting for it now. Like I said, it's been some time since I used them together. And you are right - a lot of tags would make Dragon fairly worthless. It really shines in long sentences with more or less normal diction and syntax.


 
Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 00:32
Japanese to English
+ ...
Not so bad Jul 4, 2014

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

The best solution and the only solution I would recommend is Dragon Naturally Speaking Premium. If you want to control Trados through speech recognition, you will have to buy the Professional version, which is considerably more expensive.


Nuance's site is showing DNS 12 Premium on sale right now for $180. This pales in comparison to the price of Microsoft Office, Trados, etc. You do need it, though, and not Home.


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:32
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Advantage of Premium over Home? Jul 4, 2014

Orrin Cummins wrote:
Nuance's site is showing DNS 12 Premium on sale right now for $180. This pales in comparison to the price of Microsoft Office, Trados, etc. You do need it, though, and not Home.

The edition comparison doesn't seem to show any major improvements in Premium compared to Home?

http://www.nuance.com/for-business/by-product/dragon/product-resources/edition-comparison/index.htm


 
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