| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Proposal related to barring outsourcers from offering rate at outset of job discussions Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
|
|---|
Maureen Young 
Italy
Local time: 17:50
Member (2009)
Italian to English
| A professional journal might be a better model than a newspaper | Mar 25, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
It strikes me as odd how you said "allow ProZ to do". Your local newspaper classified ad section does not act, people *use* it to act (ex. to sell cars). Of course the paper has responsibilities, I am not commenting on that, but the paper should not be confused as the actor.
Sarah Ferrara wrote:
The newspaper doesn't claim to be working in the professional interests of the people the classifieds are targeted at. If they were, they might be more discerning about the nature and appropriateness of the ads placed.
I quite agree with you, Henry, that we freelance translators have the major responsibility, but Sarah makes an important point. Given Proz's mission statement, I think a better comparison would be a professional online journal, say for doctors or engineers. It would be disturbing if their jobs section concentrated on finding people to work for low salaries rather than matching professionals to positions. Though you certainly did not intend it that way, the ProZ job section seems to have become such a powerful tool for a certain way of doing business that it is working against our interests by helping to bring prices down in general.
Maureen
| | | | | Thanks, Sarah | Mar 25, 2010 |
Sarah Ferrara wrote:
ok, that looks interesting and definitely worth mulling over. I can see more clearly now what it is you are suggesting.
Will read it all again and post tomorrow. I'm tired and cranky too.
Thanks for considering!
I think I'll take a break, too.
| | | | Maureen Young
Italy
Local time: 17:50
Member (2009)
Italian to English
| Mechanics gives estimates; you decide what you can afford | Mar 25, 2010 |
Wendell Ricketts wrote:
As Sarah (I think) said, my mechanic doesn't care what my budget is or what I have in mind to spend when I bring in my busted car. He tells me what his services cost because he is the party in the transaction who has the power to set prices. Sure, we can "negotiate" and sure, I can decide it's too much and go elsewhere. But I don't walk through his door with the arrogance of thinking I'm going to tell him what the repairs are worth.
Quite true. I have, however, told my mechanic that I prefer not to fix the air conditioning in my aging car if it is going to be too expensive. He sets his hourly rates and diagnoses the work to be done; upon receiving an estimate I decide what I can afford and thus what to approve. This could be a cultural difference though: in Italy these kinds of relationships are still usually based on building trust, whereas in the US, at least in urban areas, it is more common to try for the best prices for this kind of service without being concerned whether they are made possible by people working at living wages or not.
Maureen (who found a very smart mechanic who has probably saved us a lot of money)
| | | | | Responses to Wendell | Mar 25, 2010 |
Wendell Ricketts wrote: Henry D wrote: I don't get how ensuring that one side goes first changes the balance of power... If you don't get that, Henry, then we really are miles apart. And if you truly think it's just a matter of some school yard "who goes first" approach, then I'd say leagues instead of miles. It's a question of who establishes rates for his/her services. In any business transaction, that single fact has a huge impact on determining the balance of power because it makes clear who must go to whom to ask, to put it another way. As Sarah (I think) said, my mechanic doesn't care what my budget is or what I have in mind to spend when I bring in my busted car. He tells me what his services cost because he is the party in the transaction who has the power to set prices. Sure, we can "negotiate" and sure, I can decide it's too much and go elsewhere. But I don't walk through his door with the arrogance of thinking I'm going to tell him what the repairs are worth. That's the issue. Outsourcers need to stop believing they have that power. Translators need to take that power for themselves. If ProZ really intends to support translators and "enhance their lives," as you say, then you *SHOULD* give that power to translators. Solely and exclusively. What happens once the parties leave your store, so to speak, can't and shouldn't concern you.
OK, I think I am beginning to get on the same wavelength. I'll think on this.
I'll disagree with whomever said that the object wasn't to break the cycle by which cut-rate outsourcers meet cut-rate translators. I think that's exactly the point.
OK, this is an important question, and not one that everyone agrees on. Your position is clear.
By the same token, if we follow your logic, then what you should do is restrict the job board entirely to paying members. If your paying members are getting better jobs b/c they're being contacted directly b/c their profiles show up first, then you've created a second-tier of nonpaying members who are thrown the dregs.
If that's the model you want, then my suggestion would be to close the jobs board to nonpaying members. You're not earning anything off nonpaying outsourcers or nonpaying translators, so why not remove that ability entirely?
Now you are getting on my wavelength, too. Good. In fact we have gone down this path mentally. If it ever becomes clear that the feature does more harm than good, I would take that step. I know many people would say that the situation has already reached that point, but then the full picture is not visible to all (the situation is not as bad as it appears, one thread focused on that lately), and job postings do seem to serve a few useful purposes, also for bonafide professionals. One of the thoughts that has crossed my mind out of this is to somehow deemphasize job postings. Certainly they give several wrong impressions, that it becoming ever clearer.
You said yourself that 1/4 of the people who signed the petition were ProZ members, so your logic doesn't pan out: they pay but a fourth aren't getting decent job offers either -- or, at least, few enough decent offers that they were willing to complain about it.
That is one thing that is striking about this phenomenon, and what makes me think that (1) something new is happening with rates, and (2) translators may have what it takes to react and survive. I know for certain that a good number of the petitioners have done quite well personally through ProZ.com. Which is to say that they are earning good rates from clients they have met at the site. And I have confirmed this in conversations with several since they signed. Petitioners are so sure that something has changed in the industry, even if it has not (yet) changed for them, that they are deciding to "put their money where their mouth is", and do something that is not in their own best commercial interest. I respect that, it is part of what brought be on board.
To be clear, I am not suggesting that this is the most common profile of petitioners. But it is one of the profiles.
I repeat my question: what does Proz gain by not taking take this step? What does it lose if it does take it?
We're the ones who have to make it work. We just need a solution that works.
Now, I'll take a break!
| | |
|
|
|
Frauke Joris (X)
Italy
Local time: 17:50
Italian to Dutch
+ ...
| break and practical solution | Mar 25, 2010 |
A half an hour ago, I have _eaten_ for the first time in 3 days.
The very fact I'm not used to express myself in English, costs me _hours_.
I say this to make clear how important I my self consider this forum and this historical moment, as it really is and can could become even more.
I've put a practical solution in page nr.1 this _morning_. A pratical solution to avoid discussions here and now, but maybe it was still to much disguised to be understood as a solut... See more A half an hour ago, I have _eaten_ for the first time in 3 days.
The very fact I'm not used to express myself in English, costs me _hours_.
I say this to make clear how important I my self consider this forum and this historical moment, as it really is and can could become even more.
I've put a practical solution in page nr.1 this _morning_. A pratical solution to avoid discussions here and now, but maybe it was still to much disguised to be understood as a solution for ALL of us to AVOID DISCUSSING here. And I really do not pretend it to be the only possible solution, nor the definite or the right one.
So I re-formulate:
Henry,
Is a _TEMPORARY_ interruption PUBLISHING rates and prices _concretely possible_ in the system of ProZ?
If so, I can tell you all in a few words wich advantages this solution has. And I am sure you yourself will find other advantages and my colleagues even more.
I will also tell you wich immediate DISADVANTAGES this (temporary) solution would have for us all the translators with a ProZ-account, especially those working with "normal" languages.
Frauke ▲ Collapse
| | | |
Henry D wrote:
One of the thoughts that has crossed my mind out of this is to somehow deemphasize job postings. Certainly they give several wrong impressions, that it becoming ever clearer.
Oh yes they do. Like Paola (I think?), who wrote earlier on today, I've lost count of the times I've tried to convince fellow translators that there's much more to ProZ than the job posting system. But it is getting increasingly difficult to argue about ProZ's merits when the _most_ prominent feature is the _less_ professionally appealing of all of ProZ's features.
| | | | | Possible, yes. But better not to, I think | Mar 25, 2010 |
Frauke Joris wrote:
Is a _TEMPORARY_ interruption PUBLISHING rates and prices _concretely possible_ in the system of ProZ?
Anything is possible, but a comprehensive solution of the sort proposed, if it had to be done immediately, would present an immediate and serious disruption as far as staff time goes. We would probably have to drop everything and start vetting jobs in three shifts,which a few developers divide up and start implementing what is needed technically. I don't think the situation is that urgent. (You can get eat and get some sleep, and there will still be time to influence things when you are refreshed!)
| | | | | hiding low paying jobs vs removing the outsourcers' power to set rates | Mar 26, 2010 |
OK, I've slept on it. But I have a job to finish by lunchtime so forgive me if I still haven't fully grasped the all the implications of the solution you are proposing Henry.
Your solution is better than the existing situation.
But as I understand it, it will continue to allow the bottom feeders to prosper.
As you would have it, only the desperate translators who have set their rates very low will see the jobs and therefore be able to respond. I don't care... See more OK, I've slept on it. But I have a job to finish by lunchtime so forgive me if I still haven't fully grasped the all the implications of the solution you are proposing Henry.
Your solution is better than the existing situation.
But as I understand it, it will continue to allow the bottom feeders to prosper.
As you would have it, only the desperate translators who have set their rates very low will see the jobs and therefore be able to respond. I don't care if there are translators out there who charge 1 cent per word (and there are, we came across one recently). What other translators choose to charge is their own sorry problem, not mine, and if bottom feeders can find the poor souls willing to work at rates at half the rate I pay my unskilled cleaner, good for them. Personally I don't think a professional website like Proz aims to be is the place for them, but there you go.
The problem with the solution you have outlined is that the barrel scrapers still have their quick and dirty outsourcing done for them, in the form of Proz.
They throw out their offer, with their maximum price "rate offered": http://www.proz.com/translation-jobs/404507
and they get their bids back in return, all, however within the rate that THEY set. It is this imbalance of power that bothers us. Wendell is right in that this is a very important point. Yes, the "who goes first" is vital, for all the reasons Wendell outlined.
Now let's look at what happens if the outsourcer is not allowed to set this rate.
The job posting goes out. The outsourcer gets flooded with replies, with rates ranging from low to high. They have their work cut out for them and they'll probably reject the ones that are too expensive for them. But they are being educated in the process.
Every time they post a job offer, they are being educated about what professional translators charge for their services.
Not only that, but they might, just once or twice, look at the test translations, sample translations, brochures, websites and other materials provided by the higher paid translators, just out of curiosity. And they might start to realise that the value provided by a truly professional translator who is paid even just a decent rate for their expertise, is more than worth the extra cost. They might not, but they might.
With your proposal, this could never happen, because the professionals who charge higher rates don't even come into the picture.
For example, there might be a job poster out there who puts out a job that I am perfect for, at a rate lower than my own. I might, given the chance, have been able to convince that job poster that I am worth the extra 2 cents per word. From the range of quotes received from the job, the client has been educated, and I've been given the chance to convert a client.
What I don't like about the solution you outline is that it still facilitates the scumbags who USE and ABUSE proz as their own personal clearing house.
It still makes things easy for them, and it cuts them off from the realities of what true professionals charge. It allows them to continue in their own little bubble. And it still leaves the power (the power to set the rate for the job) in the hands of the outsourcer, not the professional. That's precisely the bit that we are getting worked up about.
I still think that the plain and simple, translator-biased model (outsourcers don't state rates, the professionals do) is best. But then I'm a translator, so I would say that. ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
| ProZ and ConZ of ProZ.com | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote: Sarah Jane Webb wrote:
... clients occasionally contact me through my profile, and that can lead to lasting relationships. It almost sounds as though you think this is by accident. ProZ.com is a network, that is how the system works for most people. Only a minority of client/translator meetings happen through the job posting system. (And thanks for your membership.)
Henry, Proz.com is undoubtedly a great network, and a lot more besides. But it could certainly be improved if the job posting system prevented insulting job posts from distorting the image and negotiating power of translators. The jobs board is currently so overrun with low-paying, arrogant outsourcers that, instead of being an asset, it's become a real turn-off and is driving people away
As Sarah Ferrara puts it:
Sarah Ferrara wrote: OK, I've slept on it. But I have a job to finish by lunchtime so forgive me if I still haven't fully grasped the all the implications of the solution you are proposing Henry. Your solution is better than the existing situation. But as I understand it, it will continue to allow the bottom feeders to prosper. (snip) The problem with the solution you have outlined is that the barrel scrapers still have their quick and dirty outsourcing done for them, in the form of Proz. They throw out their offer, with their maximum price "rate offered": http://www.proz.com/translation-jobs/404507 and they get their bids back in return, all, however within the rate that THEY set. It is this imbalance of power that bothers us. Wendell is right in that this is a very important point. Yes, the "who goes first" is vital, for all the reasons Wendell outlined. (snip) What I don't like about the solution you outline is that it still facilitates the scumbags who USE and ABUSE proz as their own personal clearing house. It still makes things easy for them, and it cuts them off from the realities of what true professionals charge. It allows them to continue in their own little bubble. And it still leaves the power (the power to set the rate for the job) in the hands of the outsourcer, not the professional. That's precisely the bit that we are getting worked up about. I still think that the plain and simple, translator-biased model (outsourcers don't state rates, the professionals do) is best. *But then I'm a translator, so I would say that*.
So am I, and so would I
| | | | | Here we are again | Mar 26, 2010 |
http://www.proz.com/translation-jobs/404743
Specialized (Translator MUST have experience in legal translation.), over 1.000 words, 40 pounds, during the week end. Come on! It's insulting.
Paola
| | | | Paul O'Brien
Argentina
Local time: 12:50
Member (2007)
Italian to English
+ ...
| No platform for people who exploit the difficulties faced by colleagues due to the recession | Mar 26, 2010 |
Hi all,
I think some of the points being made are very detailed and a bit long in some cases and I don't really have the time to go into all of them with a fine-tooth comb. So I'll keep my point quite general, if I may.
First of all, I'd like to be clear that the job offers I've received through Proz have all been very good. In many cases I've been unable to accept some job offers not because they didn't pay well, but because I've been too busy. What I mean is, it is no... See more Hi all,
I think some of the points being made are very detailed and a bit long in some cases and I don't really have the time to go into all of them with a fine-tooth comb. So I'll keep my point quite general, if I may.
First of all, I'd like to be clear that the job offers I've received through Proz have all been very good. In many cases I've been unable to accept some job offers not because they didn't pay well, but because I've been too busy. What I mean is, it is not all bad, and I think this needs to be recognised, as Sarah Jane has also pointed out. I use Proz an awful lot, both for posting "Asks", answering "Asks" and to consult the increasingly effective glossary. So, thanks to Henry D and to all the Proz staff for the really great work they do to make this all possible.
It would seem, however, that the bad side of this is beginning to prevail, undoubtedly due to the recession. The point I should like to make here is that, while my own personal situation (which has also become more precarious since exploiters, thieves and speculators threw the world into turmoil and undermined not just the livelihoods but also the very lives of millions and millions of people everywhere, especially in the poorer countries) remains reasonably okay for the moment, this cannot form the basis of my opinions on the matter we are discussing in this area of the forum. I am part of a category of professional and am a member of a mutual-aid and (with powwows etc.) social community. It is in my personal interest to make sure that the integrity and honour of my trade is defended. In addition, when it comes to ethics, morals and politics, I hate all forms of oppression and exploitation, and I particularly dislike people who use the difficult situations of others in order to make a fast buck. This seems to me to be the case with those outsourcers who are using this community to blackmail colleagues directly, and me indirectly.
That is the rock bottom of it. The recession is forcing many translators (and not only) into a corner from where they have to compete with colleagues who, in their desperation and difficulty, are prepared to accept low rates. From personal experience, and with reference to my language pair, I can confirm that many Italian colleagues are passing themselves off as native English speakers and contributing to the downward pressure on prices, though this is also understandable, since there is increasingly less work in the EN>IT sector, and they are only trying to get by, like the rest of us. No scapegoats, therefore, since the issue here is outsourcers chancing their arms, not colleagues trying to earn a living. Right?
My point, then, is that it there can be no justification for outsourcers benefiting from the hardship being faced by many people in our category. The job posting http://www.proz.com/job/401782, which has been referred to in this discussion, is the quintessential example of exploitative outsourcers making the most out of the difficulties we are facing. It should be noted, indeed, that this posting has now been cleaned up, but that previously it actually contained not just a diktat on sweatshop prices but also a) an offensive remark to the effect that bidders were not to do wordcount calculations and b) racial discrimination against people from Asia and the Far East. These were eventually removed following complaints by yours truly, but not without some of the difficulties arising out of a very passive (and a bit paternalistic, Henry, if you don't mind my saying so) position from the moderators who received the ticket.
For all these reasons, I think Henry has completely missed the point, since his proposal underrates the social nature of the attacks on our profession, and points to the individual translator's power ("by default") to reject or accept bids. It even throws a linguistic lifeline to exploiters by transforming their opportunism and insults into "sharing budget information", which basically glosses over the fact that some outsourcers are using Proz, and, I repeat, taking advantage of the very difficult situation translators are facing in this period, to dictate prices. If they want to "share budget information", Henry, let them state how much they're making on the job. Let those unmentionable scoundrels who offered (read: imposed, with brazenly provocative insults and racial discrimination) 1500-2500 dollars (obviously for them the difference of a thousand bucks is neither here nor there) for a 145,000 word job should state how much they are making on the backs of others and prove this with a fax to the Proz moderators. Let's go whole hog with "transparency", Henry.
To conclude, I don't think Proz staff should have to filter every job posting in order to ensure that it meets preset minimum rate criteria. We can all save time if jobs are posted with no price stated and bids are duly opened. But the logic of telling us that outsourcers can post what they like and that we don't have to reply to it if we deem the offer unsuitable, and that this is what our bidding power amounts to "by default", is that wee bit of paternalism creeping in again, Henry. It is basically seeing the issue solely and exclusively from the side of the outsourcer and is a grave underestimation of the danger which such an open platform for exploitation represents to colleagues everywhere.
Paul
[Edited at 2010-03-26 11:37 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-03-26 11:48 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-03-26 11:49 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-03-26 11:51 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-03-26 18:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paul O'Brien
Argentina
Local time: 12:50
Member (2007)
Italian to English
+ ...
| Well spotted Paola | Mar 26, 2010 |
Shouldn't be allowed. Much more respetful and less deamining and offensive would be:
"English to Italian
Legal- court documents
1035 words
Due: Monday 29/03 09am British time
Bids please".
What's wrong with that?
| | |
|
|
|
| Thanks, Pauley | Mar 26, 2010 |
Thanks for your comments, Pauley.
I would welcome feedback from others who are on this list but have not yet posted.
| | | | Paul O'Brien
Argentina
Local time: 12:50
Member (2007)
Italian to English
+ ...
| Calling it a "budget" doesn't change its content | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote: Sarah Ferrara wrote: Henry D wrote: Sarah Ferrara wrote:
The 800-odd translators signed the petition to oppose the business model that allows outsourcers to state/set/fix their price. But Sarah, it cuts both ways, you know. If you say that the model allows outsourcers to state/set/fix their prices, you must also say that the model allows translators to state/set/fix their prices, because there is no bias in the model, it is just pure communication between two parties. How does a job post like this http://translationtimes.blogspot.com/2010/03/job-offer-of-week.html Good, a concrete example. That post is highly offensive, and I think we are all in agreement that an end should be put to such postings. (It is the type of posting I am referring to when I talk about "propagandizing" on rates.) Under the proposal put forward by the working group, as I understand it, the posting would look something like this: We need some translation work on urgent basis & regular basis there after.
English to German-Polish-Portugese-Swedish Translation: URGENT
We have some 500 product descriptions and some site banners and ads that needs translation.
It is mostly technical and repetitive.
Product Description and other details: 21 days.
It is around 750 web pages.
Word Count is approximately: 215,000
Unique words: 133990 (Product description) and rest repeat.
NO MACHINE TRANSLATION PLEASE.
Only Native speakers!
So, if you're from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Japan, Korea, please do not bid. As we need native speakers and writers. This posting would appear on the home page and on the job listing page (to everyone who meets the non-rate criteria). In addition, notification would be sent out to those who meet the non-rate criteria, regardless of the rates they charge. A relatively high number would see the job posting, and in all likelihood, some would quote. "Negotiation" (you can guess what it would look like) would ensue. Under the approach I have outlined, the job would look the same, except with one small (optional) addition: there would be a section for "Budget". This "Budget" section would be displayed to people who are logged in and who have opted to make this field visible. So the posting would look something like this: We need some translation work on urgent basis & regular basis there after.
English to German-Polish-Portugese-Swedish Translation: URGENT
We have some 500 product descriptions and some site banners and ads that needs translation.
It is mostly technical and repetitive.
Product Description and other details: 21 days.
It is around 750 web pages.
Word Count is approximately: 215,000
Unique words: 133990 (Product description) and rest repeat.
NO MACHINE TRANSLATION PLEASE.
Only Native speakers!
So, if you're from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Japan, Korea, please do not bid. As we need native speakers and writers.
Budget: $1500 to $2500 per pair Now, who would see this posting? Herein lies the big difference between what the working group proposed and what I have called a better solution: In the approach I outlined, by default, no one would see this job! Not on the home page and not on the job listing page. What is more, notifications would not go out. Why? Because the rate would be known, and display and notifications could be filtered accordingly. This job would not be displayed or go to anyone, because it is a commercial job that pays less than 1 cent, and there is no one in the database that accepts less than one cent per word for commercial work. (Fractions of a cent are not recognized.) The only way that people would be able to find this job would be to click "also show jobs below my rates." This is not likely to happen frequently, and if it does, at least the viewer will know what he/she is dealing with. What would the outsourcer do in this case? Either go elsewhere or post again with a somewhat higher rate. Negotiation would have happened to some degree in the setting of rates and budgets. In fact, it might never have gotten to this point, because it would be technically possible to inform the poster at the time he/she enters budget information that there is no one in the database who would be willing to work within the budget expressed, and therefore the posting would be unlikely to even be read. Get it? Having the information available on rates allows all sorts of informed decisions to be made by various parties in an efficient manner. In contrast, when one knows nothing about budget because posting such information has been barred, informed decisions are not possible.
Calling it a "budget" doesn't change anything, Henry. It's still 1500-2500 dollars (whatever that means, as there's a big diffference between 1500 and 2500 dollars) for a 145,000 word job. Why throw a linguistic lifeline to these soundrels? Let them publish their offer and await bids from the people who should have the right to make them. This would be a lot easier than the rather convoluted proposal you are making. If you want my product or service you ask me how much I charge. You don't impose a price. I've never heard the likes of it. It's an absolutely untenable policy and I haven't got the faintest idea what you are doing defending it. And by the way, saying "So, if you're from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Japan, Korea, please do not bid" is racial discrimination, and it should never have been allowed up in the first place.
| | | | | well spotted too | Mar 26, 2010 |
Pauley wrote:
And by the way, saying "So, if you're from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Japan, Korea, please do not bid" is racial discrimination, and it should never have been allowed up in the first place.
I agree. As though the problem were Indians translators! Come on! The problem is that many agencies have understood they can play this trick on Proz. They pay peanuts, they probably have those translations proofread, and then they charge the usual price to end clients. Who, in turn, could also learn the same trick one day. The problem are also that many translators out there think this is the market.
Paola
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | There is no moderator assigned specifically to this forum. To report site rules violations or get help, please contact site staff » Proposal related to barring outsourcers from offering rate at outset of job discussions | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
| | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
