| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | How bad is declining job after accepting it Thread poster: Annett Roessner
|
|---|
| My Statement is a fact | Dec 11, 2023 |
[quote]Thomas T. Frost wrote:
How interesting that you suddenly want to stop after having been caught out in stereotyping Sicily yourself. Need I say more?
Yours Is not. You are speculating and harrasing now. I asked tò stop because i am tired.
[Edited at 2023-12-12 14:13 GMT]
| | | |
Angie Garbarino wrote:
My Statement is a fact
Yours Is not. You are speculating and harrasing now. I asked tò stop because i am annoyed.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Seems you can't take just a fraction of your own medicine. I didn't ask for this mindless and baseless harassment and bullying campaign – based on an unbelievable lack of ability amongst several so-called language professionals to understand plain English – to start. I asked for it to stop many times, explaining exactly what was meant, but to no avail: I had to be lectured. And you had to join the jeering crowd, who can't tell fact from fiction, to gang up on me. Nothing like being one of a booing mob where you can feel safe amongst the others and keep attacking the victim of the day. Good fun, wasn't it? Nothing like a good lynching. Did you get out the popcorn? Just until you goofed, perhaps, and suddenly found yourself at the receiving end – and then all of a sudden you are 'annoyed'. Suddenly it wasn't fun any more.
I'm not going to return the favour and call you names like the 'racist' thing you threw at me in your exaltation because I am not like that. I try to be fair and analyse the facts before howling insults. But I know not everybody is like that. Despite the vile attacks, I want to remain fair.
I will stop when people stop attacking me for something I didn't say and didn't mean, but some people here seem to think they are mind readers. I will keep up the fight until then. I have plenty of ammunition left.
| | | | Metin Demirel 
Türkiye
Local time: 18:28
Member (2018)
Italian to Turkish
+ ...
| misinterpretations | Dec 11, 2023 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote: I can't claim to know much about Italian culture, but No stereotype there. I just say I don't know much about Italian culture. if I were a PM, I would prefer the translator simply to be transparent and honest and not appreciate waffle, obfuscation and lies. I would tend to keep the former on board rather than the latter. I'd say this would be the usual approach in the Nordic countries, where "macho" claims of being able to do everything and making up barely credible excuses are generally disliked. A more down-to-earth approach works better in these countries.
These are my preferences. I'm allowed to have preferences, aren't I? I am not saying that 'Italians are so and so'. I do say I would not like the suggestion to provide a white lie, not that Italians generally would lie. If you read carefully what I said instead of listening to your own prejudice, you would see that I say that I don't know how Italians would generally do. Metin Demirel wrote:
and the conjunction "but" in your sentence negates the those traits for the Italian culture.
I am not saying that these traits are general for Italians. That's you own mistaken interpretation. Please just stick to what I wrote. Metin Demirel wrote:
You could still boast about being Nordic and not offend anyone.
I am not boasting. I am telling about my own preferences and what people in the Nordic countries would generally prefer. Don't accuse me of your own misinterpretations. Metin Demirel wrote:
I meant to say that I am disturbed with how people turn to blame the woke culture to justify themselves when they are in the wrong.
You say 'people', but since I am the only one who has referred to wokery, it can only relate to me. I have not said anything wrong. You are completely mistaken in your misinterpretation of what I wrote. Metin Demirel wrote:
(to me) you are in the wrong by bringing the Italian culture into the discussion.
So according to you, the word 'Italian culture' is taboo. There is no such forum rule nor any such convention in wider society. I only said I don't know much about Italian culture. That's all. Then some people went hysterical in their inability to read and understand a simple text written in plain English. I am quite shocked by the lack of linguistic ability displayed by people whose living is translation. Metin Demirel wrote:
you obviously don't care to understand why those people might be offended. I don't care to understand their repeated misinterpretations of what I wrote, which won't become correct interpretations no matter how many times they are repeated. I am perfectly entitled to say what I wrote and there was nothing offensive in it nor any stereotypes. It's not because a mob stamp their feet that I have to say that right is wrong. [Edited at 2023-12-11 19:43 GMT]
You are telling me to not accuse you of my own misinterpretations, but you are the one doing it. I didn't say the Italian culture is a taboo. This is your misinterpretation. I only said "to me you are in the wrong by bringing the Italian culture into the discussion," because it was not relevant. Somehow you misinterpreted it as "According to you, the word 'Italian culture' is taboo." Also you are killing the context because the whole point of the argument is within the rest of your statement after the conjunction "but". And yet you are referring to others as lacking linguistic ability.
As for your preferences, I like them and I aspire to live by all the good traits that you are associating with the Nordic culture, but they are universal, not Nordic. For instance, as opposed to many stereotypes -unfortunately very common even here on ProZ- my fastest and highest paying clients have been the ones from Greece and Egypt. I have met the most plainspoken PM's from India, Turkey and Ukraine. I have had late payment issues with clients from the US, Germany and the UK. I have been offered ridiculously low rates by Scandinavian agencies, etc.. But I am not attributing any of those good or bad traits to their culture.
I tried to be concise because I don't have that much time to respond to every fragment of misunderstanding or misinterpretation on your part. I am sure you believe the same for me. But I'd like you to know that there is not a mob here stamping their feet to intimidate anyone so they could change their opinion. But the way you defend your apathy is very much like unloading a truck-load of manure in someone's door and suggesting it's harmless.
| | | |
Metin Demirel wrote:
You are telling me to not accuse you of my own misinterpretations, but you are the one doing it. I didn't say the Italian culture is a taboo. This is your misinterpretation. I only said "to me you are in the wrong by bringing the Italian culture into the discussion," because it was not relevant.
you are in the wrong by bringing the Italian culture into the discussion
You are cheating because you did not say 'because it was not relevant'. You wrote, without a single word of explanation, as a blanket statement that Italian culture should not be brought into the discussion.
But it was relevant to point out that I did not have the knowledge to evaluate whether the suggestion to tell a white lie was reasonable in Italy or not, and who am I to tell Italians what to do in Italy? So I wanted a separating line before stating my own thoughts about it: that is Italy – I don't know. But here is what I would prefer. You are trying to tie the two parts together in a way that was not expressed and not intended, as I have explained countless times. But the attackers didn't want an explanation; the frenzied bloodhounds wanted blood.
Metin Demirel wrote:
And yet you are referring to others as lacking linguistic ability.
Indeed I am, as several people have demonstrated a lack of ability to understand plain English without messing up the meaning.
Metin Demirel wrote:
But I'd like you to know that there is not a mob here stamping their feet to intimidate anyone so they could change their opinion. But the way you defend your apathy is very much like unloading a truck-load of manure in someone's door and suggesting it's harmless.
Maybe you should go back and read all the posts, then. I clarified more than once what was meant, for those who insisted on reading a non-existent hidden meaning between the lines, but the attacks continued.
I don't know where you see any apathy.
I am shooting back at vile accusations, and since people have kept insisting that they know better than I what I intended, the tone has become gradually stronger because there is no excuse for such behaviour. Call it manure if you like, but that is what was thrown at me, and I am not one to remain silent faced with such a vile behaviour.
| | |
|
|
|
Metin Demirel
Türkiye
Local time: 18:28
Member (2018)
Italian to Turkish
+ ...
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
You are cheating because you did not say 'because it was not relevant'. You wrote, without a single word of explanation, as a blanket statement that Italian culture should not be brought into the discussion.
I am not cheating, because this is not a contest. If it is, I agree to give in and lose. Actually, I provided you with a version of your statement where I deleted the Italian culture part. That was more than explanation for someone who has a linguistic ability, but you failed to see it (or you insist not understanding it).
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I don't know where you see any apathy.
Exactly!
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
vile accusations, bloodhounds, attackers, mobs, freedom of speech, wokerati etc...
These are your words used in developing your rhetoric while your posts seem to be more popular with other members here. And how would you feel if I said something like "I don't know about the Nordic culture, but in our part of the world such and such good traits are preferred, because we are more [insert a good adjective here] and we discourage [insert a bad habit here]."?
[Edited at 2023-12-11 23:21 GMT]
| | | | | What I would say | Dec 11, 2023 |
Metin Demirel wrote:
And how would you feel if I said something like "I don't know about the Nordic culture, but in our part of the world such and such good traits are preferred, because we are more [insert a good adjective here] and we discourage [insert a bad habit here]."?
I didn't say 'good' habits and 'bad' habits. If being less transparent in some countries is a better way of not damaging relations, then I see nothing wrong with that. I didn't say that one culture was better than the other.
And if someone said as you suggested, then what? People are free to say whatever they like about this or that culture. I don't give a hoot. I'm not such a snowflake. I could write several pages about what's wrong in the Nordic countries, but what for? If they were so great, I might even be living there. But I don't.
The trouble is you persist in making the wrong presumptions about what I wrote without listening to what I have explained several times.
| | | | Metin Demirel
Türkiye
Local time: 18:28
Member (2018)
Italian to Turkish
+ ...
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I didn't say 'good' habits and 'bad' habits. If being less transparent in some countries is a better way of not damaging relations, then I see nothing wrong with that. I didn't say that one culture was better than the other.
And if someone said as you suggested, then what? People are free to say whatever they like about this or that culture. I don't give a hoot. I'm not such a snowflake. I could write several pages about what's wrong in the Nordic countries, but what for? If they were so great, I might even be living there. But I don't.
The trouble is you persist in making the wrong presumptions about what I wrote without listening to what I have explained several times.
Nobody is a snowflake here. On social media I see disgusting and extreme insults aimed at Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Indians, Europeans, Africans, the Chinese etc.. I even see people insulting their own as a reflection of the discontent towards the community they are part of. There is really no limit to how low the humankind can stoop. I just ignore them and do not engage. An essential part of communication is respect. I think we can say that respect is one trait everyone here values. After all, this is why we care to communicate here. And this is why I engaged in this exchange of words. Not because I am a snowflake.
| | | |
Metin Demirel wrote:
Nobody is a snowflake here.
I would tend to disagree, since some people have repeatedly insisted on being offended by something I did not say. Falsely accusing someone is also seriously disrespectful.
Metin Demirel wrote:
On social media I see disgusting and extreme insults aimed at Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Indians, Europeans, Africans, the Chinese etc.. I even see people insulting their own as a reflection of the discontent towards the community they are part of.
How is this related to this topic? I haven't seen anyone insult anyone because of their nationality here.
Metin Demirel wrote:
I just ignore them and do not engage. An essential part of communication is respect. I think we can say that respect is one trait everyone here values. After all, this is why we care to communicate here. And this is why I engaged in this exchange of words.
It can be tempting just to ignore aggressive people unjustly attacking you, but I don't accept to have mud thrown at me for things I did not say without responding. I politely explained more than once what I wrote (as if the original written word should not be sufficient for a translator to understand) and what I intended to say, and Chris said that as a native, he could not see anything wrong, encouraging people not to jump to conclusions when they are not natives, but that was not enough. The attacks continued.
More than once, I went back and checked if I had accidentally written my post in a way that could legitimately make it open to misinterpretation, but that's not the case.
The forum rules very clearly say that it is not allowed to speculate on what others mean. Simply reading, understanding and following such a simple rule is apparently too difficult for some translators. This miserable topic is an excellent example of what can happen when people, in breach of this rule, persist in insisting their emotional interpretation is right when the writer keeps pointing out that the original post says and intends no such thing.
I reported the rule breaches to site support on Friday but they prioritise member tickets, so it will take a while before they reach mine, and the voluntary moderators are all asleep. Hence, I had to defend myself, so the topic was left to degenerate into vile attacks, which is not something we should see in a professional forum. This is the worst behaviour I have been exposed to in my years on Proz.
| | |
|
|
|
Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 17:28
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Metin Demirel wrote:
Nobody is a snowflake here.
A person that is insulted by something that has never been written is probably the very definition of a snowflake.
| | | | | Stereotypes: aren't they lovable? | Dec 12, 2023 |
Even negative ones: you enjoy disseminating them and you enjoy destroying them (when they are targeting you). They are part of our brain, which can't help putting things into categories. Taking offence at stereotypes totally sucks, doesn't it? As for Italians, I've never had any bad thoughts about them based on stereotypes. I wonder if I should delete my post that mentioned someone calling me from a number that started with +39. I'm sure I'll get such a call as soon as I share a staple recipe I... See more Even negative ones: you enjoy disseminating them and you enjoy destroying them (when they are targeting you). They are part of our brain, which can't help putting things into categories. Taking offence at stereotypes totally sucks, doesn't it? As for Italians, I've never had any bad thoughts about them based on stereotypes. I wonder if I should delete my post that mentioned someone calling me from a number that started with +39. I'm sure I'll get such a call as soon as I share a staple recipe I use for pasta (even though my mom likes the resulting dish). The post I'm mentioning does not show up in the list of my forum posts, so I'll just have to pray that call doesn't happen in the real world. Even if I don't answer, the mafia will surely find a way to grab me ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Cannot believe this is still going!! | Dec 12, 2023 |
[quote]Thomas T. Frost wrote:
"And so what if there should be a tendency in Italy to avoid being too transparent and use a white lie instead in some situations?"
Well there you go, now you're doubling down. These are speculative opinions based on outdated cultural prejudice fuelled by the media, hearsay and people repeating derogatory things they've heard or read about a particular culture. Not only is it wildly inaccurate, I think it is also very offensive and *damaging* to keep repeating these lazy cliches and people should stop, especially on an international site like proz, where one would hope that the bar for fact-based cultural awareness would be set a little higher.
There is no such tendency in Italy any more than there is in the UK, France, Australia or the other 185 countries on the planet. It is a ridiculous generalisation that could be applied equally to *certain* individuals from every single country/culture/ethnic group in the world. Some of the least transparent people I've ever met are all English. People living in England throw sickies and invent excuses all the time. These are facts based on personal experience but I still wouldn't insinuate that ALL British people are shallow/false/macho whatever, nor that telling white lies was a defining element of prevailing British culture.
What does where they were born or live have to do with it? Telling lies or twisting the truth to save face or dig yourself out of a hole is a *human* flaw, not a *cultural* flaw.
You don't know the culture you are speculating about, so a) why make such comments based on prejudice instead of hard fact, and then b) sanctimoniously direct other posters to forum regs about not speculating, when you yourself are the one speculating.
You could have spared us all four pages of really boring argument by just admitting that you unintentionally caused offence. I think instead we'll get another four pages of you saving face and other posters being called sensitive.
| | | | | So why are you continuing your baseless accusations? | Dec 12, 2023 |
Claire Titchmarsh wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
"And so what if there should be a tendency in Italy to avoid being too transparent and use a white lie instead in some situations?" Well there you go, now you're doubling down. These are speculative opinions based on outdated cultural prejudice fuelled by the media, hearsay and people repeating derogatory things they've heard or read about a particular culture. Not only is it wildly inaccurate, I think it is also very offensive and *damaging* to keep repeating these lazy cliches and people should stop, especially on an international site like proz, where one would hope that the bar for fact-based cultural awareness would be set a little higher.
How can you translate into English if you don't even understand what 'if' means? It's a hypothesis. Look it up in a dictionary. Is that too difficult to understand? In case you didn't notice, I started by saying that I don't know much about Italian culture.
If I say, 'if it rains tomorrow, we'll have to cancel,' it doesn't mean that I claim that it will rain tomorrow. Got it?
Your wild claims are not based on anything I said but only on your own bias, preconception and prejudice. It is seriously unprofessional, rude and bad-mannered to blame me for your own thoughts.
Claire Titchmarsh wrote:
It is a ridiculous generalisation
Nobody here has stated any such generalisation. It's only your own imagination. Blame yourself for it, not me.
Claire Titchmarsh wrote:
You don't know the culture you are speculating about, so a) why make such comments based on prejudice instead of hard fact, and then b) sanctimoniously direct other posters to forum regs about not speculating, when you yourself are the one speculating.
I have not speculated about it. Stop accusing me of something I have not said. I have repeated countless times what I meant, but you chose to ignore it and continue the vile attacks.
Claire Titchmarsh wrote:
You could have spared us all four pages of really boring argument by just admitting that you unintentionally caused offence. I think instead we'll get another four pages of you saving face and other posters being called sensitive.
These pages could have been avoided if people had stopped attacking me for something I demonstrably did not say. If people want to be offended by something I didn't say, it's their own not very intelligent choice, nothing to do with me. I cannot go around nannying adults because they choose to behave like screaming children stamping their feet. I have my conscience clear. No need to save any face here.
By joining the bullying mob, you demonstrate your own intolerance and lack of respect for your colleagues' right to express opinions in respect of the forum rules, and you demonstrate a complete lack of ability to read a simple text without misinterpreting in the emotional way you insist on despite my countless explanations that such interpretations are not what was said and not what was meant.
I am utterly disgusted by the vile behaviour you and others have demonstrated here.
| | |
|
|
|
Metin Demirel
Türkiye
Local time: 18:28
Member (2018)
Italian to Turkish
+ ...
Thomas T. Frost wrote: Metin Demirel wrote:
On social media I see disgusting and extreme insults aimed at Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Indians, Europeans, Africans, the Chinese etc.. I even see people insulting their own as a reflection of the discontent towards the community they are part of.
How is this related to this topic? I haven't seen anyone insult anyone because of their nationality here.
And you're accusing me of not understanding plain English. I would not be a snowflake even if I was an Italian and I had been offended by your statement. I don't have any more time to deal with your apathetic Nordic entitlement. Obviously you have never been at the receiving end of racism. I don't know about you, but I respect people. It was my mistake to expect finding a common ground with you in a time when even the leaders of political parties racing for power can comfortably make blatantly racist statements. This forum is becoming no different than Twitter or Reddit. Enjoy your stereotypes, racism and even profanity if you like. Goodbye.
| | | | | Reported to mods | Dec 12, 2023 |
Hopefully they'll close the thread now.
I apologise for my rude and inappropriate use of the word "bollocks" upthread, but I still believe that I made a valid point.
Cultural prejudice is sometimes insidious and subtle and should in my opinion be challenged far more often, especially on this forum.
Mr Frost's last post speaks for itself and deserves no comment.
Sorry OP, that your thread turned into this.
| | | | | Pot meet kettle? | Dec 12, 2023 |
Metin Demirel wrote:
And you're accusing me of not understanding plain English. I would not be a snowflake even if I was an Italian and I had been offended by your statement. I don't have any more time to deal with your apathetic Nordic entitlement. Obviously you have never been at the receiving end of racism. I don't know about you, but I respect people. It was my mistake to expect finding a common ground with you in a time when even the leaders of political parties racing for power can comfortably make blatantly racist statements. This forum is becoming no different than Twitter or Reddit. Enjoy your stereotypes, racism and even profanity if you like. Goodbye.
Isn’t “your apathetic Nordic entitlement” way more “racist” than anything Thomas has been accused of?
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » How bad is declining job after accepting it | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
| | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
