| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | An Example of "Reader Orientation" Thread poster: Yan Yuliang
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Yan Yuliang 
Local time: 15:12
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | Try to avoid inference, even though you might be right. | Sep 23, 2013 |
Phil Hand wrote:
在你明显没有看懂原文，而且没有搞清楚该领域的最基本词汇（bidding不是名词）的情况下，擅自断定自己写的英文比原文好不太合适。
此推断从何而来？
我无意冒犯，但请不要随便做inference。
Phil Hand wrote:另外：目标读者群是拍卖所职员，对拍卖程序相当熟悉（跟你不一样？）
文档是关于online-only auction的，读者可能是全球各地有意向参与拍卖的人。
This is another inference.
| | | | Yan Yuliang
Local time: 15:12
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | Let's get focused | Sep 23, 2013 |
I think we are all going astray, focusing too much on details.
I do not know much about auction, but I do know that if something is obviously contrary to our common sense, it surely needs a good reason.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether we should focus more on "readers" than the "authors". If we, after having tried our best, still encounter problems as "readers" of the source text, should we question ourselves or the author?
We may not have p... See more I think we are all going astray, focusing too much on details.
I do not know much about auction, but I do know that if something is obviously contrary to our common sense, it surely needs a good reason.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether we should focus more on "readers" than the "authors". If we, after having tried our best, still encounter problems as "readers" of the source text, should we question ourselves or the author?
We may not have professional knowledge in every professional field (that is why we would often choose one or two fields as our expertise), however many writings in professional fields are intended for those who have less knowledge than the author. So it is worthwhile asking this question: should the author consider more about readers while writing? Should we as translators take this into consideration during our translation? ▲ Collapse
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 02:12
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Device of round up or down | Sep 23, 2013 |
Yuliang,
Here's something from Sotheby's ...
http://www.sothebys.com/en/Glossary.html Bid Increment The amount by which the auctioneer increases the bidding. In general, the auctioneer will request bids of about 10% higher than the previous bid. For instance, if the bidding opens at $5000, subsequent bids of $5500, $6000, $6500, etc. would follow. The figure is generally rounded up or down at the auctioneer's discretion.
IMO, the 200/500/800 incrementing scheme basically refers to the pattern within a 1000 range. After 800, the auctioneer rounds up to the next multiple of 1000. In this example within the range of $3000 to $5000, the first cycle pattern is 3200, 3500, 3800, 4000. Rinse and repeat. The next cycle pattern is 4200, 4500, 4800, 5000.
The similar process occurs in the 30,000 to 50,000 range, i.e., 32000, 35000, 38000, 40000, 42000, 45000, 48000, 50000.
Following is a different incrementing scheme used by Doyle New York. It avoids the 200/500/800 bit, but it also has to deal with not-so-convenient increments of 250, 2500, 25000, etc..
http://www.doylenewyork.com/buying-selling/increments.asp BIDDING INCREMENTS $ 0 - 100 : $10 $ 100 - 500 : $25 $ 500 - 1,000 : $50 $ 1,000 - 2,000 : $100 $ 2,000 - 5,000 : $250 $ 5,000 - 10,000 : $500 $ 10,000 - 20,000 : $1,000 $ 20,000 - 50,000 : $2,500 $ 50,000 - 100,000 : $5,000 $ 100,000 + : $10,000 The auctioneer may vary the increments at his or her discretion
Yet both schemes hit the $4000, $40000, $400,000, $4,000,000 ... marks. As I said before, these are milestone numbers, for lack of a better term, that attract the attention of the auction participants.
| | | | Yan Yuliang
Local time: 15:12
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Hello wherestip,
IMO the first 200 is used for the purpose of rounding up, since after we deduct 200 from the 2000 range, then there is 1800 left, which fits perfectly for the 300 increment.
Again I must emphasize, even if the bidding increment here is complex, it should at least appear as similar as other lines, which means 200, 300, 300... is much easier to understand.
FYI, I've edited my post, and added the complete list of bidding increments.
wherestip wrote: Yuliang, Here's something from Sotheby's ... http://www.sothebys.com/en/Glossary.html Bid Increment The amount by which the auctioneer increases the bidding. In general, the auctioneer will request bids of about 10% higher than the previous bid. For instance, if the bidding opens at $5000, subsequent bids of $5500, $6000, $6500, etc. would follow. The figure is generally rounded up or down at the auctioneer's discretion. IMO, the 200/500/800 incrementing scheme basically refers to the pattern within a 1000 range. After 800, the auctioneer rounds up to the next multiple of 1000. In this example within the range of $3000 to $5000, the first cycle pattern is 3200, 3500, 3800, 4000. Rinse and repeat. The next cycle pattern is 4200, 4500, 4800, 5000. The similar process occurs in the 30,000 to 50,000 range, i.e., 32000, 35000, 38000, 40000, 42000, 45000, 48000, 50000. Following is a different incrementing scheme used by Doyle New York. It avoids the 200/500/800 bit, but it also has to deal with not-so-convenient increments of 250, 2500, 25000, etc.. http://www.doylenewyork.com/buying-selling/increments.asp BIDDING INCREMENTS $ 0 - 100 : $10 $ 100 - 500 : $25 $ 500 - 1,000 : $50 $ 1,000 - 2,000 : $100 $ 2,000 - 5,000 : $250 $ 5,000 - 10,000 : $500 $ 10,000 - 20,000 : $1,000 $ 20,000 - 50,000 : $2,500 $ 50,000 - 100,000 : $5,000 $ 100,000 + : $10,000 The auctioneer may vary the increments at his or her discretion Yet both schemes hit the $4000, $40000, $400,000, $4,000,000 ... marks. As I said before, these are milestone numbers, for lack of a better term, that attract the attention of the auction participants.
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Rita Pang
Canada
Local time: 03:12
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
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Moderator of this forum | Would it help if you visualize this all? | Sep 23, 2013 |
wherestip wrote:
The amount by which the auctioneer increases the bidding. In general, the auctioneer will request bids of about 10% higher than the previous bid. For instance, if the bidding opens at $5000, subsequent bids of $5500, $6000, $6500, etc. would follow. The figure is generally rounded up or down at the auctioneer's discretion.
If it helps, try visualizing it this way- "increments of $XXX" means that every time someone raises their hand/sign to bid, the amount goes up by $XXX. Let's say $100 is the XXX here- bid price starts at $1000; person A raises their hand, $1100. Person B raises their hand, $1200.
As silly as this may sound, it might be helpful in getting the concept of "increments" down.
It's truly quite straight-forward. Increments of a certain price is used very frequently across all kinds of fields. In my other job where I sell stationary and other office items, some of our items are sold in boxes of 100, 50, 25, etc. The product description might say "box" and when the customer asks for clarification, we often say "this item is actually sold in increments of 75". The person will then automatically understood that if he were to buy 1 box, he is getting 75 units of products. To get 2 boxes, he's looking at 150, so on and so forth.
I am in Canada so I am not sure if this usage of "increments" is restricted to any particular geographic region, but I use it quite frequently.
[Edited at 2013-09-23 02:17 GMT]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 02:12
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Following patterns | Sep 23, 2013 |
... is relatively simpler than doing math.
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 02:12
Chinese to English
+ ...
Rita Pang wrote: wherestip wrote:
The amount by which the auctioneer increases the bidding. In general, the auctioneer will request bids of about 10% higher than the previous bid. For instance, if the bidding opens at $5000, subsequent bids of $5500, $6000, $6500, etc. would follow. The figure is generally rounded up or down at the auctioneer's discretion.
If it helps, try visualizing it this way- "increments of $XXX" means that every time someone raises their hand/sign to bid, the amount goes up by $XXX. Let's say $100 is the XXX here- bid price starts at $1000; person A raises their hand, $1100. Person B raises their hand, $1200. As silly as this may sound, it might be helpful in getting the concept of "increments" down. It's truly quite straight-forward. Increments of a certain price is used very frequently across all kinds of fields. In my other job where I sell stationary and other office items, some of our items are sold in boxes of 100, 50, 25, etc. The product description might say "box" and when the customer asks for clarification, we often say "this item is actually sold in increments of 75". The person will then automatically understood that if he were to buy 1 box, he is getting 75 units of products. To get 2 boxes, he's looking at 150, so on and so forth. I am in Canada so I am not sure if this usage of "increments" is restricted to any particular geographic region, but I use it quite frequently.
I agree with you, Rita. Strictly speaking, an increment refers to the delta, Δ.
Yet an "incrementing scheme" could refer to the fashion a pattern develops incrementally.
Anyway, as Yuliang said, we might be getting offtrack here. 
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 15:12
Chinese to English
| Approach the text with a little humility | Sep 23, 2013 |
Yan Yuliang wrote:
If we, after having tried our best, still encounter problems as "readers" of the source text, should we question ourselves or the author?
When you're reading your second language, and particularly when you are reading a text about an unfamiliar field, the answer to your question is simple: we should question ourselves.
译者的第一任务：读懂。
读懂不仅是要看单词，也不尽是从读者的角度来看，而是从专业语言工作者的角度来剖析。读懂即：理解作者的原意，理解（多个）读者群的定位，理解文字中隐含的意义。
读外语时，读懂并非简单，碰到搞不清楚的地方，只有在广泛咨询相关人之后才可以谨慎地提出，原文可能有问题。
We may not have professional knowledge in every professional field
那你得赶快学呗！“哇不懂”不是专业翻译可接受的状态。不可能是每个领域的专家，但是翻译在做某个领域的文件时的确要成为半个专家。要摸到术语不生，行话不怪才能做好翻译。
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Yan Yuliang
Local time: 15:12
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | 我们意见不一致并不代表你是正确的，so show your humility first. | Sep 23, 2013 |
在此提出这个问题之前，我已经与editor讨论过，也研究过拍卖的行规。
此外，我所拿到的原文文本质量，我在之前的帖子中已经有说明。如果说3,000-5,000区间的例子，以4200开始举例，那么为什么从30,000-50,000的例子，却是从32,000开始呢？
这是明显的前后文不一致。由此可以推断，原文必然是有问题的。
我欢迎就语言本身进行讨论。但在提出质疑之前，�... See more 在此提出这个问题之前，我已经与editor讨论过，也研究过拍卖的行规。
此外，我所拿到的原文文本质量，我在之前的帖子中已经有说明。如果说3,000-5,000区间的例子，以4200开始举例，那么为什么从30,000-50,000的例子，却是从32,000开始呢？
这是明显的前后文不一致。由此可以推断，原文必然是有问题的。
我欢迎就语言本身进行讨论。但在提出质疑之前，请给出您的证据。不知道您从哪里看出来“哇不懂”，还有我没有读懂原文了？或者您作为native speaker，认定自己对于这句话的理解是完全正确的？
The arrogance as a native speaker proceeds the pursuit of truth?
To further clarify，这个合约的作者是香港人，并非native speaker。
对于阁下如此鸡蛋里挑骨头的回复，我认为继续回复有违我发起讨论的初衷。因此我不会继续讨论。
此外，也请版主尽职。讨论涉及到人身攻击总不是我们应该提倡的吧。
Phil Hand wrote: Yan Yuliang wrote:
If we, after having tried our best, still encounter problems as "readers" of the source text, should we question ourselves or the author? When you're reading your second language, and particularly when you are reading a text about an unfamiliar field, the answer to your question is simple: we should question ourselves. 译者的第一任务：读懂。 读懂不仅是要看单词，也不尽是从读者的角度来看，而是从专业语言工作者的角度来剖析。读懂即：理解作者的原意，理解（多个）读者群的定位，理解文字中隐含的意义。 读外语时，读懂并非简单，碰到搞不清楚的地方，只有在广泛咨询相关人之后才可以谨慎地提出，原文可能有问题。 We may not have professional knowledge in every professional field 那你得赶快学呗！“哇不懂”不是专业翻译可接受的状态。不可能是每个领域的专家，但是翻译在做某个领域的文件时的确要成为半个专家。要摸到术语不生，行话不怪才能做好翻译。
[修改时间: 2013-09-23 08:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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谢谢Yan在讨论时采取的克制态度~
在此，我们也请各位新老朋友在跟贴时，尽量多使用商讨的语气的态度。即使在完全肯定的前提下，也请尽量使用更为平和一些的方式，以有利于论坛讨论的和谐氛围~
闻道有先后，术业有专攻。与大家热诚分享更为妥当或其他不同的表达和理解是论坛管理层致力平衡的基本愿望。
特插两句。再次感谢各位的积极参与和支持！
[Edited at 2013-09-23 07:34 GMT]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 02:12
Chinese to English
+ ...
IMO, we're looking at the issue from two different perspectives: Phil's emphasis is on the thorough understanding of the source, while Yuliang's emphasis is on the readability of the target.
I agree that both are important. But I also completely agree with what Phil said about understanding the source as being crucial. Without it, there really is not a solid foundation for readability to be based on.
That said, here's a couple of links about round numbers and ... See more IMO, we're looking at the issue from two different perspectives: Phil's emphasis is on the thorough understanding of the source, while Yuliang's emphasis is on the readability of the target.
I agree that both are important. But I also completely agree with what Phil said about understanding the source as being crucial. Without it, there really is not a solid foundation for readability to be based on.
That said, here's a couple of links about round numbers and how rounding up or down are typically done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_number
http://www.wyzant.com/help/math/elementary_math/rounding_numbers_and_place_value/rounding_numbers
FWIW, I think this is a very good discussion. If nothing else, it illustrates how people from different cultures differ in their mental process and their perception. It reminds me of the "PRINT your signature" discussion we previously had. IMO, sometimes to fully understand what's going on, you just had to be there.  ▲ Collapse
| | | | Yan Yuliang
Local time: 15:12
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
I totally agree with you on this. People from different cultures do have different ways of perceiving the same thing, therefore in a increasingly globalized society, each large company has to be aware of this.
If you intend to exploit a new market, it is surely important to know how people think and act there.
Back to this question, I totally agree with Phil that thorough understanding of the source text is equally important, since it is the foundation of everything. H... See more I totally agree with you on this. People from different cultures do have different ways of perceiving the same thing, therefore in a increasingly globalized society, each large company has to be aware of this.
If you intend to exploit a new market, it is surely important to know how people think and act there.
Back to this question, I totally agree with Phil that thorough understanding of the source text is equally important, since it is the foundation of everything. However I have also pointed out obvious number inconsistencies in similar examples (one example starts with 4,200, while another starts with 32,000). Therefore I think there should be some kind of error.
This is not a matter of cultural difference. It is simply general writing rules.
wherestip wrote: FWIW, I think this is a very good discussion. If nothing else, it illustrates how people from different cultures differ in their mental process and their perception. It reminds me of the "PRINT your signature" discussion we previously had. IMO, sometimes to fully understand what's going on, you just had to be there.
[修改时间: 2013-09-23 15:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 02:12
Chinese to English
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Yan Yuliang wrote:
Back to this question, I totally agree with Phil that thorough understanding of the source text is equally important, since it is the foundation of everything. However I have also pointed out obvious number inconsistencies in similar examples (one example starts with 4,200, while another starts with 32,000). Therefore I think there should be some kind of error.
This is not a matter of cultural difference. It is simply general writing rules.
Yuliang,
Yes, it could very well be an error. Like you said, to be consistent, the person should have listed the sample progression as (3200, 3500, 3800).
Yet another possibility is he or she intentionally started at 4200 just to provide some clarification of what happens after 4000. You'd never know.
But I agree that it is more confusing if that was the intent. It is not a very good style to say the least.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 15:12
Chinese to English
wherestip wrote:
...the person should have...
不管上下文中的论点怎么样，以上四个字都是有问题的。作为译者，哪有权利去教原文的作者“应该”怎么样？按照原文的意思来翻译，不是把自己的想法扣在别人的文本上。
当然我这么说有点绝对：在充分理解原文的过程中，要多方面考虑它的背景和原意，可以加以评估和判断。但在起草翻译之前，要先把主观考量放下，回到原文本身来翻译。
Yan, I'm not sure you're capable of listening, but I'll try one more time.
Yan Yuliang wrote:
People from different cultures do have different ways of perceiving the same thing
Yes. The text you quoted was written in English. And as someone who grew up in an English-speaking culture, I'm now going to tell you a fact about English speakers:
That text is instantly comprehensible. The inconsistency you point out does not affect understanding even the tiniest bit.
用中文再说一遍：虽然有你指出的上下不一致现象，但是对英文读者来讲，一点也不影响原文的阅读和理解。
你（中文背景）和我（英文背景）对这段文的本能性反应不一样。这就是文化差别所在。
为了做到充分理解英文文本，你得了解英文读者群对文本的反应。
"by HK$200s"和"by HK$200,500,800"形同异意，但是英文读者不会因此觉得读起来坎坷，几乎不会注意到这个形式上的现象。
The standards for writing are *different* in English. You don't get to decide what good English writing is (just as I don't get to decide what good Chinese writing is).
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 02:12
Chinese to English
+ ...
| original text | Sep 24, 2013 |
Phil,
Just to clarify, I'm in no way suggesting that the translator ever unilaterally change the meaning of the source text without consulting the author. If I were actually doing translation work, I'd just sooner reject the project if I believed there were a problem that couldn't be ironed out by contacting the author.
In this case, I truly believe the author misused the Latin term id est where he meant to use exempli gratia.
i.e. 即
e.g. �... See more Phil,
Just to clarify, I'm in no way suggesting that the translator ever unilaterally change the meaning of the source text without consulting the author. If I were actually doing translation work, I'd just sooner reject the project if I believed there were a problem that couldn't be ironed out by contacting the author.
In this case, I truly believe the author misused the Latin term id est where he meant to use exempli gratia.
i.e. 即
e.g. 比如
BTW, I think you yourself also (perhaps subconsciously) noticed the discrepancy to make the minor adjustment or modification in your translation:
（如：4,200元、4,500元、4,800元等）
I agree with you that the original text is instantly comprehensible, but I wouldn't say it is flawless.
[Edited at 2013-09-24 03:21 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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