| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Lack of English language skill costs China high-speed contract
|
|---|
| | jyuan_us 
United States
Local time: 14:19
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Your points constitute a vision | Jan 7, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Peter Simon wrote:
Besides, if the Chine can't even have good E linguist from the last 30 years, how do you imagine they could have Hindi linguists and translators just like that? Or Hindi linguists starting to translate from or into Chinese just like that? On a massive scale? Don't forget that India and China are very ancient civilizations which have coexisted for millennia and have carried on cultural and linguistic exchanges on a massive scale. How else would you explain the spread of Buddhism, which originated in India, not only into China but also beyond it all the way up to Japan? In ancient times, the universities of Taxila (located somewhere in the Afghanistan of now) and Nalanda (in the Bihar state of India) were much sought after institutions of higher learning round the globe, much like the Harvard and Massachusetts universities of today, which attracted students from all over the world, especially China. Chinese scholars visited these and other learning centres and studied Indian subjects and languages and later translated Indian texts into Chinese and Tibetan. Many lost Sanskrit texts have been found in their Chinese and Tibetan translations in the seminaries of Tibet and China. Coming to modern times, China is the largest trading partner of India and many Indian businessmen have established presence in major Chinese cities like Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou. I am sure many of them would have picked of Chinese or would be employing Chinese to Hindi translators. Also, many official organs of the Chinese government like Xinxua News and China Radio have broadcasts in Hindi. When I was briefly in Shanghai a couple of years ago, I was astonished to see Hindi soaps dubbed into Chinese being broadcast over the Chinese television channels. So it is not such an impossible thing for China or India to find translators in each other's languages. In fact, China's exposure to Indian languages is much more through than its exposure to English. The latter started just a few decades ago, but the former has been going on for thousands of years. [Edited at 2015-01-07 06:50 GMT]
Practically a lot of these thoughts may not be materialized in say another 100 years.
[Edited at 2015-01-07 07:48 GMT]
| | | | Frank Wong
Local time: 02:19
Chinese to English
+ ...
This may raise the awareness that translation is more important than some people think it is.
| | | | Vesna Markovic
Serbia
Local time: 20:19
Member (2022)
Chinese to Serbian
+ ...
| Translation from Chinese into Hindi | Jan 7, 2015 |
I completely agree with Mr. Balasubramaniam L. regarding the possibilty to find in China and/or India translatos in each others` languages.
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 14:19
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
| That's an over-generalization. | Jan 7, 2015 |
jyuan_us wrote: John Fossey wrote:
One can only assume that an organisation that doesn't ensure their proposal is error-free before submitting it is also likely to miss errors in their product before delivery.
Possibly, but it's how a buyer is going to act.
| | |
|
|
|
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
| Err is ok, but its Price... is a Fail. | Jan 7, 2015 |
How about re-check, double-check, and an expert/second opinion? Fail.
Are they really doing proper business? Fail.
For what it's worth, the Client did fail, let alone sabotaging in all shades.
Business is always risky, including translation, so the real businessman should stay on the alert.
Therefore, NOW it's just about the result and what they are going to do NOW.
Anyway, IF the Company is really ok AND IF they do their homework THEN they will surely get a decent... See more How about re-check, double-check, and an expert/second opinion? Fail.
Are they really doing proper business? Fail.
For what it's worth, the Client did fail, let alone sabotaging in all shades.
Business is always risky, including translation, so the real businessman should stay on the alert.
Therefore, NOW it's just about the result and what they are going to do NOW.
Anyway, IF the Company is really ok AND IF they do their homework THEN they will surely get a decent contract soon.
P.S. Our lecturer would give minus some 5 pts for an opening like "Due to mistakes in translations...") ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Some native Chinese translators can do a good job too | Jan 8, 2015 |
jyuan_us wrote: Dariush Robertson wrote:
I'm in regular contact with a lot of China based agencies, but only do regular work for a few. This is just another example of how short-term oriented most Chinese agencies are. The PMs will look for the cheapest translators they can find. They don't really want expensive/free-thinking/clumsy foreigners working on important cases, so they'll hire a native speaker of Chinese with 差不多 (more or less/kind of/it'll do) good English, who will work for about 1/4 of the price of a qualified native speaker of English. Result: save some money - high fives all round! If the agency in question is quite forward thinking, perhaps they'll "even" hire a "proofreader" to fix everything that's wrong with the translation (which goes far beyond simple grammar and punctuation). They may even, for a fraction of a second, consider hiring native speakers of English, but then they'll think that such a price would be far greater than anything a native speaker of Chinese (in China) would charge, and so they hire another native speaker of Chinese to do the proofreading. Result: save even more money - high fives, and the boss will be pleased by how thorough the PMs have been - even more high fives!
This doesn't always happen, but it happens a lot. I've argued with many China based agencies after they've rejected my quotes (which are within the average ranges of my language pair - based on the ProZ.com figures). I've tried to explain that unless an agency pays for quality at some point, whether it be the translation or the review (or even better - both), then they will lose clients or get into trouble. They normally hit back with comments like "you're price is too high, I've worked in Europe, US, Canada etc. no translators get that much" (this is a lie - I easily get the average rates from Europe and the US), and then they start with the sob stories "China is so poor, we have no money"...
So, that's why I only work with a small quantity of Chinese agencies, and most of them are run by westerners. I have several decent clients in Europe who always use native Chinese speakers to translate from Chinese to English. And they assigned me to work as a proofreader, although I told them firmly that I'm not native in English. In most cases the translation drafts I proofread are full of Chinglish expressions and I need to fix virtually every sentence. But I do occasionally see shining translations, which don't need a lot of changes. Trust me, these agencies didn't pay the translators whose native tongue is Chinese much lower than they did the native English translators.
Those European agencies you mention don't sound very good. The fact that they - as you mention - pay native speakers of Chinese a lower rate (even if it's just a bit lower) to proofread English indicates that they expect the work of a non-native speaker of English to be of a lower quality.
As they say - you pay for what you get. If those agencies want to take a chance with non-native speakers of any language, they may save pennies in the short-term, but they're asking for trouble in the long-term.
In my experience, I haven't yet come across a single English translation (let's say over 100 words or so) that's been done by a native speaker of Chinese which could pass for the work of a native speaker of English. I don't just say this as a translator/proofreader/editor, I also frequently mark C - E translation exams for English universities, and CIoL. I know that many native speakers of Chinese have very good English, and some even have an almost native level English. In fact the majority of my friends fall into those two categories.
Anyway, yes - I'd agree that "some native Chinese translators can do a good job", in terms of the quality of English being mostly good, and sounding mostly natural. This might be "good enough" for any Mr. Chabuduo agencies, but pretty good normally isn't good enough for professional agencies. I don't say this out of spite. Believe it or not but my Chinese is actually pretty good. Good enough to do a pretty good E - C translation for a non native speaker of Chinese. But I'd rather not hand anything back to an agency that's not at a professional standard. Yes, people make mistakes, professionals make mistakes, but a non-native of any language is likely to make more (and in my experience they do).
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 14:19
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Dariush Robertson wrote:
Those European agencies you mention don't sound very good. The fact that they - as you mention - pay native speakers of Chinese a lower rate (even if it's just a bit lower) to proofread English indicates that they expect the work of a non-native speaker of English to be of a lower quality.
Firstly, at least one of the agencies is one of the top LSPs in terms of size, and it has been ranked as a five star company by many translators on many websites.
Secondly, your statement "pay native speakers of Chinese a lower rate (even if it's just a bit lower) to proofread English indicates that they expect the work of a non-native speaker of English to be of a lower quality" doesn't always hold true. They pays lower to these translators because these translators charge lower, which doesn't mean the clients "expect the work of a non-native speaker of English to be of a lower quality". What they are looking for is an acceptable quality.
Thirdly, in some specialty areas, even the end clients don't expect a native speaker quality, and as long as they can understand the information accurately, they don't care if the translation is excellent or acceptable. One example I can give you is the medical research articles published in China. The end clients want these articles to be translated into English just to get an idea of what the researcher has been doing. For that purpose, the translation really doesn't have to be attractive as a marketing document. Even if there are some issues linguistically speaking, the end client will be OK with it as long as they can understand the information.
[Edited at 2015-01-08 14:33 GMT]
| | | | | The size of an agency isn't everything | Jan 8, 2015 |
jyuan_us wrote:
"Firstly, at least one of the agencies is one of the top LSPs in terms of size, and it has been ranked as a five star company by many translators on many websites".
It might be the biggest agency in the world with the most 5 star ratings. Still, putting our language pair to the side, if this agency is frequently letting non-native speakers proofread, then something is going to give (quality). Temporarily moving our discussion away from Europe to China. It's ... See more jyuan_us wrote:
"Firstly, at least one of the agencies is one of the top LSPs in terms of size, and it has been ranked as a five star company by many translators on many websites".
It might be the biggest agency in the world with the most 5 star ratings. Still, putting our language pair to the side, if this agency is frequently letting non-native speakers proofread, then something is going to give (quality). Temporarily moving our discussion away from Europe to China. It's funny how many China based agencies contact me on LinkedIn proclaiming that they are either one of the biggest/best agencies in China, or a certain region of China. After exchanging a few emails I normally find that I want nothing to do with them. Personally I don't care how big an agency is. What I do care about is 1. How much they'll pay, 2. Do they pay on time, and 3. Do they have friendly and communicative PMs.
jyuan_us wrote:
"Secondly, your statement "pay native speakers of Chinese a lower rate (even if it's just a bit lower) to proofread English indicates that they expect the work of a non-native speaker of English to be of a lower quality" doesn't always hold true. They pays lower to these translators because these translators charge lower, which doesn't mean the clients "expect the work of a non-native speaker of English to be of a lower quality". What they are looking for is an acceptable quality".
My statement was based on the information you provided: "Trust me, these agencies didn't pay the translators whose native tongue is Chinese much lower than they did the native English translators". From this it seems that the non-native speakers in question were getting paid at least a little bit less. I don't really see the difference in whether the translator charges less or the agency pays less. At some stage a lower fee has been agreed upon, and the end result is the same - a non-native speaker has potentially undercut a qualified native speaker. There may be short term gains, but it's not good for the industry.
You mention "acceptable" quality. This can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. What's acceptable to a L2 translator may not always be acceptable to the L1 audience. Obviously the Chinese translators responsible for the translation of the High Speed Rail contract thought that their work was of "acceptable" quality. Surely if they had involved a proofreader (well, probably an editor) who was a native speaker of English, and specialised in the right areas, then this whole mess could have been avoided.
jyuan_us wrote:
"Thirdly, in some specialty areas, even the end clients don't expect a native speaker quality, and as long as they can understand the information accurately, they don't care if the translation is excellent or acceptable. One example I can give you is the medical research articles published in China. The end clients want these articles to be translated into English just to get an idea of what the researcher has been doing. For that purpose, the translation really doesn't have to be attractive as a marketing document. Even if there are some issues linguistically speaking, the end client will be OK with it as long as they can understand the information".
Of course the intended audience is important. If the client has stated that they didn't care so much about the quality, or if the translation was intended for non-native speakers then things might be done differently and budgets may be lower. I normally avoid stuff like this. I've even seen one of those medical articles you've mentioned. A friend of mine wanted me to a proofread an article their friend had done, it was on brain surgery and it was going to be published in China... somewhere in Inner Mongolia. It was all in English, but I didn't have a clue what any of it meant. It looked like a direct machine translation that had been slightly touched up. I just left it alone. Again, coming back to the high speed rail incident - they still should have paid a little more and had the contract translated and proofread properly.
[Edited at 2015-01-08 16:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 14:19
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I think the whole discussion has been based on assumpitions | Jan 9, 2015 |
1. The China company's failure to get the contract has been caused by poor translation.
2. The China company didn't pay well to the translation agency/translators.
Assumption 1 might be just an excuse of the decision-makers for failing to get the contract.
I don't think the customer has rejected the bid solely because of the quality of the translation. They are smarter than that.
This is like the case of Non-English doctors and lawyers applying... See more 1. The China company's failure to get the contract has been caused by poor translation.
2. The China company didn't pay well to the translation agency/translators.
Assumption 1 might be just an excuse of the decision-makers for failing to get the contract.
I don't think the customer has rejected the bid solely because of the quality of the translation. They are smarter than that.
This is like the case of Non-English doctors and lawyers applying for their licenses. The respective Boards would mainly evaluate the knowledge of the applicants, instead of evaluating if their English is excellent or not. Otherwise, thousands of the practicing lawyers and doctors should have failed.
Assumption 2 neglects the fact that the China company is a huge State-owned enterprise, and the price they pay for getting services is the least thing they care about. They would not run the risk of getting low quality documents by paying very low fees.
[Edited at 2015-01-09 09:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 23:49
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | That could be the real reason | Jan 9, 2015 |
jyuan_us wrote:
Assumption 2 neglects the fact that the China company is a huge State-owned enterprise, and the price they pay for getting services is the least thing they care about. They would not run the risk of getting low quality documents by paying very low fees.
If I understand the Chinese system correctly (which I might not!), most large corporations are run by the state and bureaucrats and decisions are arbitrary and not based on business needs or marketing requirements. This leads to a lot of business decisions being taken based on poor understanding of the market and client requirements.
The very fact that the Chinese tried to market their train technology in India and West Europe in English indicates they don't understand well how these markets operate.. Anyone who is familiar with India will know that government decision-makers are hardly familiar with English, and most use Hindi, especially after the new government that came in last year. I have made this point in my earlier posts also.
I am not saying that if the Chinese had marketed their product in India in Hindi, they would have won the business, just that it would have made a very favourable impression on the Indian decision-makers which would be half the battle won. Ultimately, the proposal would be minutely examined and evaluated on technological, financial, strategic and other viability criteria, but a correct frame of mind and disposition while this evaluation is being done will definitely favourably influence the final decision. And Hindi could have played an important role in this.
[Edited at 2015-01-09 05:08 GMT]
| | | | | No language choice | Jan 9, 2015 |
This was a bid. Normally the customer specifies the language that should be used for the bidding documents. If the customer specified English, submitting them in Hindi would be a mistake!
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 14:19
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
| Evaluation of bids | Jan 9, 2015 |
Terry Richards wrote:
This was a bid. Normally the customer specifies the language that should be used for the bidding documents. If the customer specified English, submitting them in Hindi would be a mistake!
Exactly. As would submitting them in poor English. Some of the things Contracting Officers look for when evaluating bids are the bidder's ability to follow instructions and to avoid errors. We can discuss the pros and cons of whether this is a good thing or not, but it's the reality of the marketplace.
[Edited at 2015-01-09 21:21 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
Peter Simon
Netherlands
Local time: 20:19
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Mr. Balasubramaniam L. | Jan 9, 2015 |
As to what's important in the case involved, Terry has stated the point.
As to your retort to my analysis, and your other remarks, I notice a few major features:
One - you refer to history. I'm afraid what the situation was 200, or 2000 years ago has nothing to do with today's situation.
Two - you refer to the new leadership, even the new ruling elite. They came into power last year. Is that enough to make a major shift in translators' proficiency, in your opinio... See more As to what's important in the case involved, Terry has stated the point.
As to your retort to my analysis, and your other remarks, I notice a few major features:
One - you refer to history. I'm afraid what the situation was 200, or 2000 years ago has nothing to do with today's situation.
Two - you refer to the new leadership, even the new ruling elite. They came into power last year. Is that enough to make a major shift in translators' proficiency, in your opinion.
Three - What, in your humble opinion, has the ruling elite to do with the general development of education and in particular with translators' proficiency, which, even in the case of top-level speakers of a second language, needs years to be perfected?
Four - if Indian businessmen are well established in China, why do they still talk English (as I met some of them), and why do they need interpreters in English (as one of my former students is one like that)?
Five - How do you propose that Hindi is already a unifying language in a country with 122 major languages (ten of them with more than 50 million native speakers)? Do you only have Hindi acquaintances? No Kashmiris, no Assames, no Tamils? No, because you'd be scared to meet them, imho ... so you simply forget about them, as do your new 'ruling elite'. Like in most countries do about their nationalities.
Six - "it links all the countries of South Asia including Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh ..." ??? We can doubt the truth content of this very much as Hindi is not simply a language - it also symbolizes the much more important divide between Hindus and the majority religion of Islam in Pakistan and Bangladesh (and the also-mentioned Middle-Eastern countries). Another reason why Hindi can't be the unifying language in the region.
[Edited at 2015-01-10 08:04 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-01-10 08:05 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 23:49
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | I wonder where you got all this "info" about Hindi and India | Jan 10, 2015 |
Peter Simon wrote:
As to what's important in the case involved, Terry has stated the point.
As to your retort to my analysis, and your other remarks, I notice a few major features:
One - you refer to history. I'm afraid what the situation was 200, or 2000 years ago has nothing to do with today's situation.
Two - you refer to the new leadership, even the new ruling elite. They came into power last year. Is that enough to make a major shift in translators' proficiency, in your opinion.
Three - What, in your humble opinion, has the ruling elite to do with the general development of education and in particular with translators' proficiency, which, even in the case of top-level speakers of a second language, needs years to be perfected?
Four - if Indian businessmen are well established in China, why do they still talk English (as I met some of them), and why do they need interpreters in English (as one of my former students is one like that)?
Five - How do you propose that Hindi is already a unifying language in a country with 122 major languages (ten of them with more than 50 million native speakers)? Do you only have Hindi acquaintances? No Kashmiris, no Assames, no Tamils? No, because you'd be scared to meet them, imho ... so you simply forget about them, as do your new 'ruling elite'. Like in most countries do about their nationalities.
Six - "it links all the countries of South Asia including Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh ..." ??? We can doubt the truth content of this very much as Hindi is not simply a language - it also symbolizes the much more important divide between Hindus and the majority religion of Islam in Pakistan and Bangladesh (and the also-mentioned Middle-Eastern countries). Another reason why Hindi can't be the unifying language in the region.
[Edited at 2015-01-10 08:04 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-01-10 08:05 GMT]
This is the general impression that most foreigners have about India who meet only well-heeled Indians, often, non-resident Indians, who are mostly English-speaking, and these Indians spread the impression that India is an English-speaking country like the US or the UK.
The truth is, India is a billion-strong country which has as you said many languages, and only a handful speak English (1 or 2% according to some guestimates). The link language of India is and has always been Hindi since ancient times. When a Gujarati meets a Bengali or a Punjabi meets a Marathi, most often they will communicate in Hindi. They may initiate the conversation in English if they are educated, but soon relapse into Hindi, because most Indians, except the 1 or 2% mentioned above, don't speak or know English. Same is true when a Pakistani meets an Indian, or a Bengladeshi or a Nepali meets an Indian or any other South Asian, the natural language of communication is Hindi or Urdu or Hindustani, which is why I said that Hindi is the link language of South Asia, too.
Regarding the new government coming in last year, it has been long in preparation and its victory is the culmination of several decades of ascendancy of Hindi and the decline of English in India, and is not a year-old phenomena.
So don't go too much by what English-speaking Indians tell you about India, especially if they are non-resident Indians, they won't know much about the internal working of modern-day India.
The English-speaking Indians, to shore up their waning relevance in the country, propagate the supposed importance of English in India, and many gullible foreigners fall line-hook-and-sinker for their propaganda.
So I repeat, any business that seriously wants to gain a foot hold in India should place its bets on Hindi, rather than English.
| | | | Peter Simon
Netherlands
Local time: 20:19
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Dear Balasubramaniam L. | Jan 10, 2015 |
Thank you for this expanded explanation. You could be more correct than I am of course. I only see two snags.
One is that it's such a huge country (no, not a billion-strong, much more than that, by another third) that I have to suppose (!) no single Indian person knows very much about all facts and factors there. It's like when Chinese start explaining to foreigners what Chinese cuisine is like - what's Indian ...?
My other problem is with "any business that seriously wants to ga... See more Thank you for this expanded explanation. You could be more correct than I am of course. I only see two snags.
One is that it's such a huge country (no, not a billion-strong, much more than that, by another third) that I have to suppose (!) no single Indian person knows very much about all facts and factors there. It's like when Chinese start explaining to foreigners what Chinese cuisine is like - what's Indian ...?
My other problem is with "any business that seriously wants to gain a foot hold in India should place its bets on Hindi". I have a strong feeling (supported by your earlier remarks about a lot of Indian businessmen doing business in China, which I've also experienced there) that it's the Indians who'd like to get a foothold in China rather than vice verse, except perhaps in the Kashmir region. And it stays a huge obstacle for Chinese that they lack the kind of multi-language (and English-teaching) culture India could still have, though could quickly lose if the trend you've pointed out goes on too long.
An additional remark: I'm convinced now that average people don't speak English, probably never did in India, but personnel of large international firms still do need good English communicators and translators. That problem brought up originally as topic for this discussion is largely a problem for China, and India, whether more Hindi than English or not, can do little about it.
[Edited at 2015-01-10 17:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Lack of English language skill costs China high-speed contract | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
| | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
