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窃司令
裴林氏法

Glossary entry

Chinese term or phrase:

非武力无以立国

English translation:

No armed forces, no country

Added to glossary by 855649 (X)
May 20, 2008 06:07
15 yrs ago
Chinese term

非武力无以立国

Chinese to English Art/Literary History
怎么翻译?
Proposed translations (English)
4 No armed forces, no country
4 +3 A nation cannot be established without defense forces.
4 +1 no military force, no presence of a nation.
4 All nations are born of war
Change log

May 21, 2008 03:56: 855649 (X) Created KOG entry

Discussion

Wenjer Leuschel (X) May 20, 2008:
A pragmatical interpretation of the phrase would be "枪杆子出政权" or "He rules, who wins."
Wenjer Leuschel (X) May 20, 2008:
@Tony: Well, it is obvious with the context that Li Xiehe was of the opinion that a nation could not be established without military forces (for defense and other purposes). However, he was aware of the risk of a military dictatorship.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) May 20, 2008:
Don't worry. The problems are not mine. I just happen to live in Taiwan now, but not for long. It's always easier to love one's homeland in a distance, isn't it? (Especially when one's living depends on it.)
855649 (X) May 20, 2008:
hehe dear Tony, ur so cute, thanks so much! Wenjer and I were just discussing something out of the topic, for fun :P maybe tmrw we would extend to problems between China and Taiwan, lol~j/k! sorry for disturbing~
855649 (X) May 20, 2008:
it wasn't strong enough,yeah, but its still so-called "defense forces", wan't it? otherwise what will you name it? Meanwhile, its a country, why didn't the ppl care to be ruled by others? If Iraqi didn't care to be ruled, nobody would have died.
Tony Zhou (asker) May 20, 2008:
上下文补充 李燮和认为一个国家要振兴，“非武力无以立国”，但是军队不能掌握在少数军人手中，致使形成用兵窃政的局面.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) May 20, 2008:
Well, we are not going into historical discussion. This is no forum after all. But concerning defense forces, Shu wasn't strong enough to defend itself. Besides, the people in Shu wasn't for defense. They didn't care to be ruled by others.
855649 (X) May 20, 2008:
呵呵 不过好像越扯越远，跑题啦~~ 重点是“非....无以...”句式的使用:P
855649 (X) May 20, 2008:
嗯，没错的~ 我并不是说，有“攻打的能力就一定要去攻打的”。就像当今很多国家也具备攻打别人的能力呀，但是他们就不选择攻打 :) 呃。。或者举个简单的例子，我们知道三国“魏蜀吴”，但是最后“蜀国”还是被灭了，可是我们能说蜀国没有“defence forces"吗？事实上，蜀国也是拥有“defense forces”的，不至于连个士兵都没有的，对吧? 但是它无法“立”，因为它的力量没有巨大到足以攻打别人，使别人畏惧 （没有说一定要攻打哦）that's what i meant
Wenjer Leuschel (X) May 20, 2008:
The Chinese character of 武 shows that we use weapon (戈) to stop (止) intrusion (- above 戈), which means definitely defense, not violence against others. For violence, we have another word composed of two characters --- 暴力.
855649 (X) May 20, 2008:
其实我觉得这句话还是有点上下文不完整。
如果放在现代社会的话，那么这种“武力”理解为"defense forces"也可以，“抵御外敌”的武力装备，just like Japan. 但是放在古代的话，那就不行了，光能“抵御外敌”就远远不够，还要具备足以攻打别人的能力，这样别人才会惧怕，才不敢侵犯，才足以让国家“立足”，稳定。所以不同的情况还要考虑是要"defense forces" or "armed forces"/"military forces"
Wenjer Leuschel (X) May 20, 2008:
"非武力" in the context of "非...无以..." is quite different from "非...国防". The semantic is decided by the syntax.
855649 (X) May 20, 2008:
“非武力”不是指“非武力国防”的，而是指没有“武力”，是效仿诸葛亮的“非淡泊无以明志，非宁静无以致远”的格式，以双重否定（非...无以）表示肯定。不过此“武力”应该是指“军事武装力量”吧，而不是“暴力之武力”，“没有军事武装力量就没有能力建立、稳定一个国家”。而Lai'an提到的链接中的“非武力国防”中的“非”与此处的“非”个人认为是不同的，“非武力国防”应该可以称为是一种捍卫国土的方式吧...不采用武力/暴力的国防
chica nueva May 20, 2008:
http://mail.tku.edu.tw/cfshih/def6-4-020514.htm
chica nueva May 20, 2008:
more context would be helpful. The whole sentence? the period? 非武力指非武力国防?
http://209.85.173.104/searchq=cache:Pz27qyRQFT8J:mail.tku.ed...

Proposed translations

1 hr
Selected

No armed forces, no country

Interesting
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you all for providing so many options."
+3
10 mins

A nation cannot be established without defense forces.

有许多种说法。比较含蓄些：A nation cannot exist without defense.
Peer comment(s):
agree AZ-Loc
2 hrs
Thanks.
agree Michael Lickorish : My favourite, "A nation cannot persist without defense".
3 hrs
Dobrý den. Thanks. I like exceptions and persisting with defense, too.
agree Gertrude Tsau
7 hrs
Thanks.
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

no military force, no presence of a nation.

FYI
Peer comment(s):
agree AZ-Loc
52 mins
Something went wrong...
23 mins

All nations are born of war

I think "All nations are born of war" sounds better than the double negative contained in "no nation is established without force".

The meaning is very similar to Mao's famous dictum 枪杆子里面出政权
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 28 mins (2008-05-20 06:35:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OR All nations are built by force.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2008-05-20 08:06:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Based on the other suggestions, "No nation stands without force".
Peer comment(s):
neutral Wenjer Leuschel (X) : Hello! How about Slovakia? The Tscheks and the slovakians are reasonable people. Two nations out of one without a war.
2 hrs
The exception that proves the rule :P
Something went wrong...
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