Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
bar
English answer:
casting the bar
Added to glossary by
Jenni Lukac (X)
Nov 2, 2011 22:05
12 yrs ago
English term
bar
English
Social Sciences
History
English law, parliamentary records, 14th century
When they arrived at the appointed place, the lords and commons generally heard a proclamation,
partly based on the statute of Northampton, (c. 3, 1328), forbidding the
bearing of offensive weapons by all degrees, while children are not to
play 'bar' nor snatch at people's hoods, under pain of imprisonment.
What could "bar" mean?
Thanks in advance.
partly based on the statute of Northampton, (c. 3, 1328), forbidding the
bearing of offensive weapons by all degrees, while children are not to
play 'bar' nor snatch at people's hoods, under pain of imprisonment.
What could "bar" mean?
Thanks in advance.
Responses
| 3 +4 | casting the bar |
Jenni Lukac (X)
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| 5 | either the children's game of "bars" or the exercise of "casting the bar," |
Christopher Crockett
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| 3 +1 | prisoners' base |
Polangmar
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Change log
Nov 16, 2011 08:57: Jenni Lukac (X) Created KOG entry
Responses
+4
6 mins
Selected
casting the bar
This source puts it in the 16th Century, but I believe that it has been a common game/sport since earlier times. "The Tudors also liked wrestling and 'casting the bar', which was like shot-putting but with an iron bar."
http://www.localhistories.org/games.html
My father-in-law did it with his buddies both as a child and an adult in rural Spain in the 1920s. For children, the bar might have been a wooden bar or stick, rather than metal.
http://www.localhistories.org/games.html
My father-in-law did it with his buddies both as a child and an adult in rural Spain in the 1920s. For children, the bar might have been a wooden bar or stick, rather than metal.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
17 mins
prisoners' base
The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary says:
bar II
11. Prisoners' base or a similar children's game.
PRISONERS' BASE (PRISONERS' Bars), an ancient game much affected by children. The players are divided into two sides, each standing within a base or home marked off at some distance apart. After preliminary songs and war-like challenges, a player on"one side runs out and is pursued by one of " the enemy "; if touched he becomes a prisoner of the side to which his captor belongs.
http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/p2/prisoners_base.html
bar II
11. Prisoners' base or a similar children's game.
PRISONERS' BASE (PRISONERS' Bars), an ancient game much affected by children. The players are divided into two sides, each standing within a base or home marked off at some distance apart. After preliminary songs and war-like challenges, a player on"one side runs out and is pursued by one of " the enemy "; if touched he becomes a prisoner of the side to which his captor belongs.
http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/p2/prisoners_base.html
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Christopher Crockett
: I am much more inclined to think that it is this **children's** game that is meant, rather than the (obviously Adult) "Casting the Bar." Will post the full OED entry in the discussion section shortly.
14 hrs
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Thank you.:)
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15 hrs
Christopher Crockett
Native in English
&
English
Specializes in field
M.A., Ph.D. Historian/Art Historian
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
8
either the children's game of "bars" or the exercise of "casting the bar,"
here miraculously transformed into a game played by children.
I'm definitely, positively sure that it is one of the two.
And, I'm definitely, positively sure that I don't know which one of the two it is.
As Charles notes, "casting of the bar" was (unsuccessfully?) barred [as it were] in the 14th c., which dovetails nicely with the date in your text.
*But*, your text specifically puts the thing in the context of *children's* activities, like "hood snatching" (possibly "hoodman-blind"), which doesn't seem to apply to "casting the bar."
The fact that your [modern] source uses the singular, "bar", while the OED only indicates instances of use as the plural, "bars", is troubling; but might well be explained by the possibility that your source did not know what was being referred to, simply assuming that it was a question of "casting the bar" --possibly falling ever deeper into Error (as in a game of Blind Man's Bluff). Also note that
the text reads "while children are not to play 'bar'" --"not to play 'casting the bar'."
Is "casting the bar" ever just referred to as simply "bar"?
Not as far as the OED is aware.
In any event, it is surely, positively one or the two mentioned above.
Therefore, I win.
Q.E.D.
Now, where do I go to collect the money?
---------
ˈhoodman-ˈblind, n.
An old name for blind-man's-buff n.
1565–73 T. Cooper Thesaurus, Mya‥a childish play called hoodman blind.
1609 R. Armin Two Maids of More-clacke sig. E3v, Was I bewitcht, That thus at hud-man blind I dallied?
1611 R. Cotgrave Dict. French & Eng. Tongues, Clignemusset, the childish play called Hodman blind, Harrie-racket, or, are you all hid.
a1616 Shakespeare Hamlet (1623) iii. iv. 71 What diuell was't That thus hath cousend you at hoodman-blinde [1603 hob-man blinde, 1604 hodman blind]?
1790 R. Porson Lett. to Travis 172.
1822 W. Irving Christmas Eve in Sketch Bk., Here were kept up the old games of hoodman blind, shoe the wild mare [etc.].
1850 Tennyson In Memoriam lxxvi. 106 Again our ancient games had place‥And dance and song and hoodman-blind.
I'm definitely, positively sure that it is one of the two.
And, I'm definitely, positively sure that I don't know which one of the two it is.
As Charles notes, "casting of the bar" was (unsuccessfully?) barred [as it were] in the 14th c., which dovetails nicely with the date in your text.
*But*, your text specifically puts the thing in the context of *children's* activities, like "hood snatching" (possibly "hoodman-blind"), which doesn't seem to apply to "casting the bar."
The fact that your [modern] source uses the singular, "bar", while the OED only indicates instances of use as the plural, "bars", is troubling; but might well be explained by the possibility that your source did not know what was being referred to, simply assuming that it was a question of "casting the bar" --possibly falling ever deeper into Error (as in a game of Blind Man's Bluff). Also note that
the text reads "while children are not to play 'bar'" --"not to play 'casting the bar'."
Is "casting the bar" ever just referred to as simply "bar"?
Not as far as the OED is aware.
In any event, it is surely, positively one or the two mentioned above.
Therefore, I win.
Q.E.D.
Now, where do I go to collect the money?
---------
ˈhoodman-ˈblind, n.
An old name for blind-man's-buff n.
1565–73 T. Cooper Thesaurus, Mya‥a childish play called hoodman blind.
1609 R. Armin Two Maids of More-clacke sig. E3v, Was I bewitcht, That thus at hud-man blind I dallied?
1611 R. Cotgrave Dict. French & Eng. Tongues, Clignemusset, the childish play called Hodman blind, Harrie-racket, or, are you all hid.
a1616 Shakespeare Hamlet (1623) iii. iv. 71 What diuell was't That thus hath cousend you at hoodman-blinde [1603 hob-man blinde, 1604 hodman blind]?
1790 R. Porson Lett. to Travis 172.
1822 W. Irving Christmas Eve in Sketch Bk., Here were kept up the old games of hoodman blind, shoe the wild mare [etc.].
1850 Tennyson In Memoriam lxxvi. 106 Again our ancient games had place‥And dance and song and hoodman-blind.
Reference comments
2 hrs
Charles Davis
Spain
Spain
Native in English
&
English
Specializes in field
Spain
Related KudoZ points
:
52
Reference:
casting the bar
"King Edward III., in the 39th year of his reign, enjoined the exercise of shooting and of artillery, and forbad the casting of the bar, the hand and foot-balls, cock-fighting, et alios ludos vanos; but no effect followed from it, till they were some of them forbidden by act of parliament"
Sir Thomas Edlyne Tomlins, & Thomas Colpitts Granger, The Law-Dictionary, Explaining the Rise, Progress, and Present State of the British Law (1835), vol. I, s.v. Gaming
http://books.google.es/books?id=qoEDAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA2-PR57&lpg...
Sir Thomas Edlyne Tomlins, & Thomas Colpitts Granger, The Law-Dictionary, Explaining the Rise, Progress, and Present State of the British Law (1835), vol. I, s.v. Gaming
http://books.google.es/books?id=qoEDAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA2-PR57&lpg...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Jennifer Levey
: Great stuff. Is that "foot-balls" as in 'soccer', ponders I? And if nay, wot then be it, sire?
11 mins
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Thanks very much, MM! Yes, it does refer to an early version of soccer: "mob football", played especially at Shrovetide with a pig's bladder, apparently.
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| neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: Maybe. / Butbut, it's a ***children's*** game that's being referred to here, Charles.
12 hrs
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I take your point, Christopher, and doubtless children playing (prisoner's) bars could be a nuisance. But although "casting the bar" was manly stuff, perhaps children did a version of it (well worth banning, if so!). Seems to fit with "offensive weapons"?
|
14 hrs
Christopher Crockett
Native in English
&
English
Specializes in field
M.A., Ph.D. Historian/Art Historian
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
8
Reference:
The full OED entry, with instances of use
BAR:
17. (in pl. bars:) the game of ‘prisoner's base’ or ‘chevy.’ The players, after choosing sides, occupy two camps or enclosures, and any player leaving his enclosure is chased by one of the opposite side, and, if caught, made a prisoner. Still in north. dial.
c1400 MS. Cott. Cleop. D. ix. 156 b, Þe children ournen at þe bars.
1450 Myrc 336 Bal and bares and suche play Out of chyrcheȝorde put away.
1611 R. Cotgrave Dict. French & Eng. Tongues, Barres, the play at Bace or Prison Bars.
a1795 J. Aikin & A. L. Barbauld Evenings at Home xvii. 276 At cricket, taw, and prison-bars, He bore away the bell.
1801 J. Strutt Glig-gamena Angel-ðeod ii. ii. 71 A rustic game called base or bars, and in some places prisoners' bars.
------
There is the problem that your text reads "to play bar" rather than "bars" --but it is a modern text, perhaps written by someone who didn't fully understand what was meant (and who may have even thought that the adult exercise of "casting the bar" was what was being referred to).
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2011-11-03 14:08:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here's the OED on "BAR" (with instances of use as it applies to the military exercise):
2. spec.
a. A thick rod of iron or wood used in a trial of strength, the players contending which of them could throw or pitch it farthest; the distance thrown was measured in lengths of the bar.
1531 T. Elyot Bk. named Gouernour i. xvi. sig. Hvii, Throwyng the heuy stone or barre, playing at tenyse.
1600 S. Rowlands Letting of Humors Blood iv. 64 To pitch the barre, or to shoote off a gunne.
1715 M. Prior Alma i. 311 While John for ninepins does declare, And Roger loves to pitch the bar.
1801 J. Strutt Glig-gamena Angel-ðeod Introd. 13 To amuse himself in archery, casting of the bar, wrestling.
Nota, Bennies: No instance where the exercise is simply called "Bar" as it (presumably) is (not) in our text.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2011-11-03 14:13:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Note to Charles:
"....although 'casting the bar' was manly stuff, perhaps children did a version of it (well worth banning, if so!). Seems to fit with 'offensive weapons?"
Nice try, Charles, but, as we say here in Southern Indiana, "that dog won't hunt."
The "bar" reference in our text *clearly* refers to a children's activity: "...forbidding the bearing of offensive weapons by all degrees [i.e., classes of adults] ***,*** while ***children*** are not to play 'bar' nor snatch at people's hoods..."
17. (in pl. bars:) the game of ‘prisoner's base’ or ‘chevy.’ The players, after choosing sides, occupy two camps or enclosures, and any player leaving his enclosure is chased by one of the opposite side, and, if caught, made a prisoner. Still in north. dial.
c1400 MS. Cott. Cleop. D. ix. 156 b, Þe children ournen at þe bars.
1450 Myrc 336 Bal and bares and suche play Out of chyrcheȝorde put away.
1611 R. Cotgrave Dict. French & Eng. Tongues, Barres, the play at Bace or Prison Bars.
a1795 J. Aikin & A. L. Barbauld Evenings at Home xvii. 276 At cricket, taw, and prison-bars, He bore away the bell.
1801 J. Strutt Glig-gamena Angel-ðeod ii. ii. 71 A rustic game called base or bars, and in some places prisoners' bars.
------
There is the problem that your text reads "to play bar" rather than "bars" --but it is a modern text, perhaps written by someone who didn't fully understand what was meant (and who may have even thought that the adult exercise of "casting the bar" was what was being referred to).
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2011-11-03 14:08:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here's the OED on "BAR" (with instances of use as it applies to the military exercise):
2. spec.
a. A thick rod of iron or wood used in a trial of strength, the players contending which of them could throw or pitch it farthest; the distance thrown was measured in lengths of the bar.
1531 T. Elyot Bk. named Gouernour i. xvi. sig. Hvii, Throwyng the heuy stone or barre, playing at tenyse.
1600 S. Rowlands Letting of Humors Blood iv. 64 To pitch the barre, or to shoote off a gunne.
1715 M. Prior Alma i. 311 While John for ninepins does declare, And Roger loves to pitch the bar.
1801 J. Strutt Glig-gamena Angel-ðeod Introd. 13 To amuse himself in archery, casting of the bar, wrestling.
Nota, Bennies: No instance where the exercise is simply called "Bar" as it (presumably) is (not) in our text.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2011-11-03 14:13:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Note to Charles:
"....although 'casting the bar' was manly stuff, perhaps children did a version of it (well worth banning, if so!). Seems to fit with 'offensive weapons?"
Nice try, Charles, but, as we say here in Southern Indiana, "that dog won't hunt."
The "bar" reference in our text *clearly* refers to a children's activity: "...forbidding the bearing of offensive weapons by all degrees [i.e., classes of adults] ***,*** while ***children*** are not to play 'bar' nor snatch at people's hoods..."
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Charles Davis
: Very useful.
23 mins
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Maybe. Thanks, Charles.
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| agree |
Polangmar
36 mins
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Thanks, Polangmar. Who knows, perhaps we (you) are right.
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