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Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

hide design

English answer:

design showing buffalo/bison and feathers

Added to glossary by Yvonne Gallagher
Dec 18, 2017 11:51
6 yrs ago
1 viewer *
English term

hide design

English Law/Patents Law: Patents, Trademarks, Copyright
I'm not sure of the meaning of 'hide design' in the following context.

[Official mark status is also available for heralds, flags, armorial bearings and designs. The Cree Nation of Chisasibi has, for example, protected its herald as an official mark, the Nisga’a Nation its flag, the Huron Wendat Nation its armorial bearings and the Peigan Band its hide design.]

https://www.boughtonlaw.com/2013/07/protecting-aboriginal-ma...
Responses
4 +4 design showing buffalo
4 +3 (Native American) design painted on animal skins
Change log

Dec 27, 2017 20:06: Yvonne Gallagher Created KOG entry

Discussion

Björn Vrooman Dec 23, 2017:
Thanks! Thank you for the answer.

I hope the discussion provided some pointers or help to the asker as well.

I hope all of you have an enjoyable weekend!
Alison MacG Dec 21, 2017:
@herbalchemist, Björn, Charles et al. Just to add my agreement that hide as used here must indeed refer to hide shield
Herbmione Granger Dec 21, 2017:
Agreed Alison's references identifying the official mark as a "Hide and Feathers" design and "Hide & Design" were key to cracking this mystery.

If you want to be even less ambiguous, I think that simply "shield" would be fine. It fits in the sentence with "herald," "flag" and "armorial bearings," and it is not wrong. Also see:
http://www.jamesayers.com/power-of-the-shield/
http://www.jamesayers.com/mysterious-power/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piikani_Nation
http://www.spiritalk.net/native-americans-medicine-shield.ht...

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4939-1646-7_...
Our nation's flag features a stylized warrior's shield emblazoned with a bison motif and fringed with...
Björn Vrooman Dec 20, 2017:
Hello Alison I hope the pre-Christmas season is shaping up well. Thanks for the link!

Doesn't this support what herbalchemist said below and what Charles reiterated, i.e., "hide" in the sense of "hide shield"? I can clearly see the feathers and a hide shield, including "buttons" on the shield, as shown at the link herbalchemist posted below.

The first link that you provided called it a "Hide and Feathers design," which would lead me down the same path.

Just to add to the confusion, though, have a look at this here:
http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademark...

As in your d-box link, "Design" is separate from the company name, which probably means the first part is a "keyword."

What's more, if we're talking about "car design" or "building design," isn't the first that thing that comes to mind a "car" or a "building"? Muddied waters here.

For the purposes of translation, I'd rather pick your first link in line with what was said during the discussion, i.e., you make it about the "hide (shield) and feathers"; otherwise, the translation may be just as confusing as the original.

Best

Cf https://www.pinterest.de/jpippin13/native-american-shields
Alison MacG Dec 19, 2017:
Application details See the Canadian Trademarks Database
0901472 - HIDE & DESIGN
https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademar...
Charles Davis Dec 19, 2017:
@herbalchemist Very interesting reference: the plot thickens. Maybe, then, "hide" here means "hide shield", not "buffalo/bison", "hide and feathers design" meaning a depiction of a hide shield with feathers rather than of a buffalo with feathers; in other words, although the hide shield depicted in this design does have a picture of a buffalo on it, "hide" does not actually mean "buffalo". Could be; "hide" as metonym for buffalo/bison is speculative and it's difficult to find supporting evidence for that usage, though in principle it seems possible.
Herbmione Granger Dec 19, 2017:
hide design If this refers to the design of a hide shield (circle, bison painting on rawhide, feathers), then it is not what I originally thought. http://www.plainsindianreproductions.com/buffalo-hide-shield...
Herbmione Granger Dec 19, 2017:
Pop Art v. Traditional Art Does an official mark provide protection from the Andy Warhols of the world? https://www.artnet.com/auctions/artists/andy-warhol/plains-i...
Björn Vrooman Dec 19, 2017:
Just to add to one thing... ...Charles had already mentioned in brief: Please do not use "trademark" when referring to the design. The asker had already posted a link where you can read the text in full.

There are significant differences between a CAN-specific "official mark," such as the one described here and a trademark. Please see:
https://www.ljlaw.ca/downloads/Official Mark or Trademark.pd...

Two other tidbits from the asker's text to help determine the meaning:
1) "[...] images which have cultural or traditional import but are not covered under copyright law may also be protectable as official marks"

2) "Official marks have some extraordinary advantages over regular trade marks or certification marks and also offer protection for traditional art and designs which may not be covered by copyright."

Here you see why this is important:
"While continued use of a pre-existing trademark is exempt, official marks can seriously curtail the ability of a trademark owner to expand its use of a trademark, or register a trademark based on previous common law usage that has not yet been applied for."
http://www.smart-biggar.ca/en/articles_detail.cfm?news_id=48...

I do agree that it's not good writing.

Best
Charles Davis Dec 19, 2017:
Continued (2) The date of this document is 1999. The same passage is quoted in this 2006 University of British Columbia PhD dissertation on "Intellectual Property Rights, Legislated Protection, Sui Generis Models and Ethical Access in the Transformation of Indigenous Traditional Knowledge", by Greg Young-Ing (a member of the Opsakwayak Cree Nation in Northern Manitoba). Young-Ing indicates that it is quoted from an unpublished and undated work, Mark Eikland, Models for New Marks of Authenticity in Canada.
https://open.library.ubc.ca/media/download/pdf/831/1.0103864... (p. 86; p. 93 of file)
Charles Davis Dec 19, 2017:
Continued The design is similar in form to a number of Native American dream catchers: a circle with feathers hanging from it. I think it's pretty clear that "hide", in this name, refers to the form of a buffalo inside the circle.

Here's the relevant passage in Alison's document. The inverted commas (quote marks) around the names suggest that these official marks are registered under those names:

'Some Aboriginal communities and organizations that have filed and advertised official marks under the Trade-marks Act include: the Osoyoos Indian Band Council for “Inkaneep”; the National Native Role Model Program; Kahnawake for a “Dream Catcher design”; the council of the Comox Band of Indians in B.C. for “Queneesh”; Campbell River Indian Band Development Corporation, also in B.C., for the “Discovery Harbour” mark and design; and the Peigan Band Administration of Alberta for a “Hide and Feathers design”.'
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/Collection/R32-204-199...
Charles Davis Dec 19, 2017:
Hide design As for the expression in the asker's text, it is in principle ambiguous. A "hide design" could mean a design drawn or painted on hides (skins) or it could mean a design depicting a hide. It could perfectly well mean the former in this context. The argument that it cannot mean this because designs on hide, as a generic phenomenon, cannot be protected, is obviously fallacious. The meaning would be their particular (unspecified) design, traditionally depicted on hides, in any medium. A country could in principle protect its "flag design"; everyone would understand that this means the design it uses on its flag (such as the stars and stripes), which would be protected as a mark wherever that design is used.

However, the official Canadian government paper Alison has cited seems to indicate that the Piikani's official mark (not trademark), registered under Section 9 of Canada's Trade-mark Act, is called the "Hide and Feathers design". To me this suggests that "hide design", in the asker's text, is an abbreviated form of this name, and refers to the particular design in question, shown in several references already posted, including herbalchemist's greetings card.
Charles Davis Dec 19, 2017:
Piikani, Peigan, Piegan, Pigunni, Pikunni... All these spellings are found. They are just different attempts at rendering the Algonquian name. Piikani, which may be the most phonetically accurate, is what they seem to call themselves now, at least in what is now Canada. Academic sources on Native Americans variously use others.

"The Blackfeet Indians of the United States are one of four closely related tribes of Plains Indians known generally by the name of Blackfeet. All of the tribes spoke the same Algonquian language. The Blackfeet in Montana, also known as the Southern Piegan or Pigunni, are the only group of Blackfeet Indians to have a reservation in the United States. The others, known as the Northern Piegan, the Bloods, and the Blackfeet proper, signed Treaty Number 7 with Canada in 1877; each was given a reserve in southern Alberta"
Mary B. Davis, Native America in the Twentieth Century: An Encyclopedia, 284
https://books.google.es/books?id=onZ9AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT284

Carl Weisman, in his Encyclopedia of Native American Tribes, calls this subtribe of the Blackfeet "the Piegan (or Pigunni or Pikunni, meaning "poorly dressed")."
https://books.google.es/books?id=WxomdGVLjZ0C&pg=PA37
Muhammad Atallah (asker) Dec 18, 2017:
Thanks! Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Noni Gilbert Riley Dec 18, 2017:
The Peigan Band... ...are now known as the Piikani Nation.
http://piikanination.wixsite.com/piikanination

Responses

+4
42 mins
Selected

design showing buffalo

yes, at first I thought it was about painting on hides as well but after spending some time loking at various sites the same image keeps cropping up. It's clear that this flag, showing a buffalo, is their trade mark, as is clear from their own website:

http://piikanination.wixsite.com/piikanination

https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/6g8hr8/flags_o...

This is natural as buffalo were such an important part of their lives.

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Note added at 56 mins (2017-12-18 12:48:22 GMT)
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Note that the bison or buffalo was the most widely used hide and it's also quite clear they painted a variety of symbols on the hide, birds, animals abstract designs etc.
But this is about protecting a trademark so it has to be one logo or design rather than a random deign on hide like some of these:
https://www.google.ie/search?q=peigan band hide design&rlz=1...

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Note added at 1 hr (2017-12-18 13:08:27 GMT)
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I should have pointed out the buffalo and feathers design being used as the logo/mark could also be painted on (buffalo) hide

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Note added at 9 days (2017-12-27 20:37:30 GMT) Post-grading
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Glad to have helped.
In relation to some comments, personally I would not use "shield", mainly because there are two types: a war/warrior shield and a medicine one and these could bear a wide variety of designs.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/native-american-shields-his...
Here the word "hide" is being used deliberately to refer to ONE particular design that has been chosen as the mark for the nation so there is NOT a variety of possible shield or hide designs as can be seen in my third link above, and here:
https://www.google.ie/search?q=peigan nation war and medicin...

Anyway, introducing the word "shield" would be causing even more ambiguity as there are quite a few different meanings for the word (and kinds of shield for that matter).
I considered using "design on hide" but it is clear that this particular design is widespread and used on lots of items related to the nation, including postcards, flags, and websites, as has been shown in the links. So, while the original design was almost certainly on hide, that is no longer necessarily the case. So I think it best to stick closely to doing a literal translation with a short explanation as necessary.
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : The English is not very clear (what do they mean by herald, for example?), but I think this makes more sense.
1 hr
Yes, I think it has to be a particular logo/design. "herald" might be intended to be "heraldic image"? Yes, writing is loose to say the least.
agree Tina Vonhof (X) : Indeed, a design, logo or whatever it is officially called.
4 hrs
Thanks Tina:-)
agree Alison MacG : Aboriginal communities and organizations that have filed and advertised official marks … include: … the Peigan Band Administration of Alberta for a "Hide and Feathers design” http://publications.gc.ca/collections/Collection/R32-204-199...
5 hrs
Thanks Alison. I looked at that site earlier but didn't spot that sentence
agree Charles Davis : Alison's reference has changed my mind. It shows that "hide and feathers" is the name (perhaps the registered name) of the specific design.
8 hrs
Thanks. No doubt in my mind at all once I saw this design/mark on their own and associated websites.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you!"
+3
15 mins

(Native American) design painted on animal skins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plains_hide_painting
Plains hide painting is a traditional Plains Indian artistic practice of painting on either tanned or raw animal hides. Tipis, tipi liners, shields, parfleches, robes, clothing, drums, and winter counts could all be painted.

In your context, the design is representative of the Peigan Band.

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Note added at 7 hrs (2017-12-18 19:01:16 GMT)
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It would make even more sense in the sentence if the design was on the tribe's shield or banner, in parallel with "flag" and "armorial bearings."

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Note added at 9 hrs (2017-12-18 20:52:08 GMT)
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The meaning of this phrase is not completely clear, but I would still go with the immediate/obvious meaning of a drawing of some sort unique to this tribe. Also on the Wikipedia page, the first image is the tribe's representative flag/banner, and the caption is "Shield of the Piikani Nation" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piikani_Nation

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Note added at 9 hrs (2017-12-18 21:15:36 GMT)
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https://kolorkard.com/products/the-piikani-flag-greeting-car...
The Piikani Flag by Native Artist Wesley Harry.
The Piikani Flag is a representation of the Piikani Nation, a tribe that is part of the Blackfoot Confederacy.
The colour red is representation of the Piikani People. The shield is representation of the protector. The centre buffalo is representation of Our Chief. The 12 feathers signify the 12 council members.

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Note added at 10 hrs (2017-12-18 22:26:57 GMT)
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http://www.spiritalk.net/native-americans-medicine-shield.ht...
Medicine shields were used by Native Americans men for spiritual as well as physical protection. Physical safety was aided by the size of the shield, and the material used to make it, which was a hard rawhide from the hump of the buffalo. The rawhide was cured, making it dense, so that no arrow could penetrate it. Bullets from early flint rock rifles didn't always go through the rawhide, although more powerful bullets did.
For spiritual protection, the shields were circular, and decorated with power symbols and objects of personal significance.
Note from asker:
Thank you!
Peer comment(s):
agree Björn Vrooman : Whether or not the original wasn't exactly what was needed here, the fruitful exchange in the discussion box means my agreement is justified as per KudoZ rules. I hope all of this helps the asker too.
3 mins
Thanks! I think it fits. Designs on flags, designs on tipis or other surfaces, etc.
agree Noni Gilbert Riley : Was writing the same answer, got interrupted, definitely agree!
19 mins
Thank you! Also for clarifying that this is the Piikani. I couldn't find anything on the Peigan Band.
neutral philgoddard : You can't trademark an artistic technique. I think it has to be some kind of emblem.
3 hrs
"design painted on" "design is representative of"?
agree Tina Vonhof (X) : Agree with Charles, it is the design that is trademarked. These tribes/nations are Canadian, not American. // True but let's just say they are located in Canada.
5 hrs
Thanks, Tina. I think they prefer to be neither ;)
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : The tribe used a lot of different designs on hides as is clear from my third reference. Most hides were buffalo. As for "flag" look at the image on their flag. But mainly, the image on their own website makes it clear what their mark is.
7 hrs
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